Author Topic: grappling with the myths 2  (Read 24815 times)

ju4o

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grappling with the myths 2
« on: 10 January 2013 07:52:28 PM »
Hi here is a place for people to discuss and critically examine some of the myths of the new age

Hopefully a polyharmonic buzz started by people who did not make up their minds may elicit helpful contributions from people who did

Myth (Gk μῦθος), story told to illustrate a supposedly deep truth, may be founded in fact or fiction

New Age, the trans-global cross-fertilization of myth which began in the 18th and 19th centuries in British India Russian Central Asia and the Americas

The myth of the warrior sage ... of the gait of yu ... the tale of the four arrows ... the way of the mountain echo ... of the trickster sorcerer ... the myth of the lyrical anthropologist ... so many myths, so few contributors to the forum (so far) (joke)

~j

Mr X

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #1 on: 20 January 2013 03:53:18 PM »
myth number # 1, the one that is first.

the myth - that the new age, any part of it and its belifs, has any affect, on anything, at all. any of it. that some of it actually works.

so, does it ? any of it, even one single part of it. clearly it changes peoples perception of the world. but not wearing socks anymore also changes perception of the world. new age myths are pretty far reaching, stupidly big scope too, is there any good in what must be lots and lots of bad ?

mr x.


ju4o

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #2 on: 20 January 2013 11:25:03 PM »
Valid new age practice.

An example that springs readily to mind is acupuncture.  Because of being medical (or at least quasi-medical) it has had a fair amount of scientific research done on it.

By now it's scientifically respectable to suggest that acupuncture might work in at least some ways.  People will still disagree of course but the debate has begun.

So there is progress.

Perhaps you are hoping for a more whimsical example.  Problem is, you seem to be a wilful sceptic.  Calling yourself Mr X does not help either.  It might be difficult for you to persuade new agers to talk about their favourite new age practices.

ju4o

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #3 on: 22 January 2013 09:29:55 AM »
Quote
the debate has begun.

There used to be a nice clean pattern where in odd-numbered years opinion swung in favour of acupuncture and in even-numbered years it swung against.

But in 2008, annoyingly, two reports came out in the same year, one against and one in favour.

This seems to have disrupted the trend because, since then, it has been the other way round: in even-numbered years opinion swings in favour of acupuncture, while in odd-numbered years it swings against.

~~~wiki:

In 2003 the World Health Organization's Department of Essential Drugs and Medicine Policy produced a report on acupuncture. The report was drafted, revised and updated by Zhu-Fan Xie, the Director for the Institute of Integrated Medicines of Beijing Medical University. It contained, based on research results available in early 1999, a list of diseases, symptoms or conditions for which it was believed acupuncture had been demonstrated as an effective treatment, as well as a second list of conditions that were possibly able to be treated with acupuncture.

A 2004 Cochrane Review initially concluded that acupuncture appeared to be more effective than antiemetic drugs in treating postoperative nausea and vomiting, but the authors subsequently retracted this conclusion due to a publication bias in Asian countries that had skewed their results.

A poll of American doctors in 2005 showed that 59% believe acupuncture was at least somewhat effective for treatment of pain.

In 2006, a BBC documentary Alternative Medicine filmed a patient undergoing open heart surgery allegedly under acupuncture-induced anesthesia. It was later revealed that the patient had been given a cocktail of weak anesthetics that in combination could have a much more powerful effect.

Professor of Complementary and Alternative Medicine Edzard Ernst and his colleagues have produced regular systematic reviews of the acupuncture literature. In 2007, they concluded that "the emerging clinical evidence seems to imply that acupuncture is effective for some but not all conditions."

A 2008 review examined randomized controlled trials on the effects of the PC6 point, as well as points thought to rely on the same meridian, at preventing PONV within the first 24 hours of surgery. Three of the ten studies found statistically significant evidence that acupuncture could prevent PONV though comparison of the studies is difficult due to the use of varied methodologies (different patient groups, different ways of stimulating the PC6 point such as a needle versus finger pressure versus a special bracelet, timing and length of application of pressure, the use of one versus both arms, whether a general anaesthetic was used, and the mixture of men and women in the studies). The reviewer ultimately concluded that "due to the lack of robust studies, [this review] found that neither acupressure nor acupuncture was effective in preventing or managing PONV in adults" and suggested further research to clarify issues such as the length and type of stimulation applied, training of those applying stimulation and gathering data, risk factors for PONV, inclusion of proper placebos, and the analysis of specific population. The author also suggested disagreement with previous systemic reviews were due to their inclusion of older studies with poorer methodologies, while the more recent, better quality studies included in the review offered more negative results.

The Osteoarthritis Research Society International released a set of consensus recommendations in 2008 that concluded acupuncture may be useful for treating the symptoms of osteoarthritis of the knee.

A 2009 review, however, concluded that the specific points chosen to needle does not matter, and no difference was found between needling according to "true" points chosen by traditional acupuncture theory and "sham" acupuncture points unrelated to any theory.

A 2010 systematic review ... suggested that acupuncture is more than a placebo for commonly occurring chronic pain conditions, but the authors acknowledged that it is still unknown if the overall benefit is clinically meaningful or cost-effective.

A 2011 assessment of the quality of randomized controlled trials on TCM, including acupuncture, concluded that the methodological quality of most such trials (including randomization, experimental control and blinding) was generally poor, particularly for trials published in Chinese journals (though the quality of acupuncture trials was better than the drug-related trials).

A 2012 meta-analysis found significant differences between true and sham acupuncture, which indicates that acupuncture is more than a placebo when treating chronic pain (even though the differences were modest and non-specific effects were still considered an important part of the therapeutic effect).

:wiki~~~

So will 2013 continue the recent trend whereby odd-numered years highlight the forces of reaction, or will it revert to the earlier trend according to which odd-numbered years are favourable to acupuncture?  Ladies and gentlemen, place your bets.  Maybe forum4 should open a betting section.

ju4o

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #4 on: 26 January 2013 05:32:11 PM »
And another thing which is beginning to be more scientifically respectable ... ... ... paranormalology.

http://spiritualitydiscussiongroup.yuku.com/topic/854/paranormal-phenomena (http://spiritualitydiscussiongroup.yuku.com/topic/854/paranormal-phenomena)

Mr X

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #5 on: 27 January 2013 04:47:05 PM »
ok, it is funny you mentioned acupunture. because i was going to mention it in the question, as it is an needed distinction.

i think we need, for the sake of discussion direction, to define the line between new age and alternative medicne.

acupunture, due to haveing some research behind it, is an go to point for new age. but it cant be new age, due to being consistantly so old and on going.

new agers cant claim old age things is what i am saying. now, other chinee things such as meridians, that is old, but to me, also new age.

some definitions would be good, where do we draw the lines. the new age will take you from worlds in orions belt to the hollow earth, the mythology created in an period of decades is massive, but does it really go back to ancient china ?

there is and gap, and big need to investigate, the new age has all the answers and willing seeker could ever want. we need to know if it has any answers, and if so, what is the location of the answer. i dont think we are going to solve this mysteries, but there is no harm in trying.

if an person was really looking at it, they would notice where the new age overlaps, more than contradicts, then study the points of overlap, the points that come up again and again. do those repeated, constantly noticed points have any value, at all ?

for the sake,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p07Qdq2Jzv0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp95olCn3lY

mr x
« Last Edit: 08 February 2014 05:52:38 PM by Mr X »

ju4o

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #6 on: 28 January 2013 03:08:14 PM »
"where do we draw the lines."

Good question.  Here are some to be getting started with.



Mr X

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #7 on: 29 January 2013 06:02:49 PM »
well keep in mind i am both and genius and and idoit, so i doubt my interpret will be the same as what you intended.

My first thought is that it would be nice to talk to bmass, see why they are not on the bottom line. i didnt know france would enter the equation.

next thought is that we should, with the use of tech and wonder ful things such as google maps, divide up the world into segments. with quick and clear definitions, group up the world with some lists of established, ongoing systems.

the new age is not an religion or nation, at the most its an movement. if we can remove from its definition established old age things, we perhaps could see where the new age is, in an way. its like how an persons religion is an result of where they were born.  maybe the old age is all that keeps the new age running, aside from the pile of new age stuff that seems to come from nowhere.

the need to define new from old age is important. quackery from alt medicine also. we would be wasting our time trying to debunk or investigate acupuncture or tai chi. they are not new, so therefore out of the scope of new age myths.

the universe is amazing, space is so cool, but for now, and video game. the mysteries of the ages await, but video, mopeds, wine and ciggarettes, a reliable woman that i love, those things consume me. a baby kookaburra that i feed steak to in the morning. im going to go find an hemmingway book one day soon.

despite all that, lets do this. i will add "talk with bond about the mysteries and their possible locations" to my daily to do list.

just keep in mind i an 100% sceptic, (not as lifestyle choice, but i cant help but be), 50% agnostic, 30% toltec sympathiser.

mr x

ps.

just adding vid for merls, i know he is out there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSFT2OKcdk0
« Last Edit: 08 February 2014 05:53:24 PM by Mr X »

Merlin

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #8 on: 30 January 2013 12:26:18 AM »
Big improvement on your previous tupes.

Yes, still out here...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1-4u9W-bns
Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?

ju4o

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #9 on: 31 January 2013 09:27:05 AM »
"if we can remove from its definition established old age things, we perhaps could see where the new age is"

But new age adherents generally think and/or hope that new age wisdom is fundamentally ancient.

And in at least some cases quite likely it really is.

ju4o

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #10 on: 31 January 2013 09:31:11 AM »

P.S. if new age wisdom is supposed to be fundamentally old, you might well ask why is it called new age.

Good question.  But there is a good answer.

What is new about the new age are the global interconnections which make ancient wisdom more easily accessible (since approx the 17th century) and the tools of reason and science which can now (since approx the 18th century) more readily be brought to bear on it, than in the old days when it was more shrouded in mystery and difficult-to-challenge dogma.

Basically the new age is about liberation from hidebound dogmatix.

Doncha think.

Mr X

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #11 on: 01 February 2013 05:32:46 PM »
okay, maybe another way of saying it is - if we put under the microscope an new age Buddhist person, who heals people with crystal therapy, what do we spend our time looking at to determine if there is and possible answer.

we could look at the buddhist side. for the rest of our lives. or we could check out the crystal thing, where is it from, the history, the application, the results. fairly quickly (due to interconnection called the internet). and move on. to the next one, of thousands. that with google and all, we can filter pretty quick.

but, i very much do see your point. especially the second post point. well that is and nice way of looking at it, new to me. i still do highly doubt that 90% of new age people / business / groups have any (direct) connection to anything ancient.

perhaps thats an good filter if looking for stuff. direct connection to old age is an flag, an raised point of interest.

there is also the problem - that if something is valid, such as it works as advertised, or the "location of answer", the location could be anywhere, or anything. it could be buried deep within the highs and lows of emotions. how do you measure or GPS coordinate that. but its something, that is there, for good or bad, and can be returned to, referred too. i doubt it can be scientifically measured for now, but if it is actually real, one day it will be located with tech and science. until then, there must be some other way to map out things, if they are even there.

merlin, well we obviously have to try to meet in the middle somewhere music wise, im trying to get the feel of what you like, but just saying the second vid was way better than the first. i didnt like it at first but once it got going it was enjoyable. i dont have much time for tube right now so i will go with this,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lyu1KKwC74

x

Merlin

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #12 on: 01 February 2013 10:01:06 PM »
See that's more like it.  Actually in UK there is another version with very slightly different melody, but equal in popularity at least every four years.


Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?

Mr X

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Re: grappling with the myths 2
« Reply #13 on: 05 February 2013 07:15:42 PM »
in reference to youre last video, when i see things like that i always cant help but wonder what it would be like if hale and pace did that.

while it is possible to interpret  your text and apply it to the new age, the converstation seems to have stalled for an moment.

so for now, i think we should probably set up and off topic forum section for tuping or other side interests. as bond doesnt tupe, it is sort of rude of us to add them in or talk about them in the middle of real talk. i think that would work for now, if the forum got more busy they could probably go back into talk posts without any disruption.

and other thing - as the forum is small at the moment, nice and cool and chill, i would very much like to know some more about the other forum memebers. it is only natural to be curious. for instance if we suddenly got 50 memebers overnight i would probably use my admin powers to go back and edit out anything from my own posts that i would deem too personal, such as day z talk. but for now, while we are here, whats up.


why are we in an nice but quiet forum discussion the myths of the new age ?
why are you here ?
who on earth are you ?
whats your rational mind vs new age sympathy ratio ?
any thoughts about the forum, how it could grow and what we will discuss ?
any thing else ?

for me, this is my personal perspective, i am both interested and not interested in the new age myth investigation. is hard to explain. i am interested, very, but not, because very few things in life actually really interest me. due to, roughly, not caring about anything. i dont mean to sound douche baggy, just trying to describe my view on life as it sits. the fact i will die one day bothers me, and i have zero faith in mankind. for now thats the best i can describe it, i might be able to do better some other time. i would like to know the position of you guys, your view on life itself,  or on simple things like the forum and its direction, just talk in general.

why not.

mr x.

ps.
set up the off topic sub forum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCQhuuUKL6g



Mr X

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Re: kind coldness
« Reply #14 on: 11 February 2013 06:03:55 PM »
despite merlin saying discuss is timeless, it still seems stalled.

the number one clue is that we went from myths of new age to sweet ruthless caring about. why is that ?

i have asked some legitimate, reasonable questions, if such simple questions cant even be answered by and small private group, what else is there to ask or converse about.

it is possible, that conditioning from years of thightly wound, tense posting on SR could put people on the defecnce. like how serious posters on reddit.com become hyper aware of spelling and grammer.

being open and clear, just saying stuff about what you think, is not bad. here you can just say it, you dont need to justify or prove what you think off the bat (though in the course of an normal converstation, needing some backing up thoughts would happen), just saying is and step.

that is all fine and good, there are numerous reasons why blurting out what you actually think online is something to be cautious of.

what is not fine and good, is acting as if the question was never asked. carrying on.

so, aside from the questions already asked, i add, why the change to the sub forum name and description ?

i do expect answers to these questions.

if there is no answers, i will still participate.

x

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRfuAukYTKg
« Last Edit: 11 February 2013 06:25:00 PM by Mr X »