# Forum4

## Forum4 => Swimming for my Dad => Topic started by: Mr X on 12 February 2015 07:57:05 PM

Title: general supernatural exploration - part 1
Post by: Mr X on 12 February 2015 07:57:05 PM

i am guessing this will be more and thread of questions than answers.

what is the difference between supernatural and paranormal ?

have you ever had and experience that could be described as supernatural.

is there an god

what happens after we die, do you guess

yes or no, bigfeets alien ufos ghosts or fortune telling physics.

does spirituality require and supernatural component ?

have you ever had to knock on wood ?

how do we explore the supernatural ?

do you belief in and soul like concept, or are you meat ?

why people are so dumb? *z

Why is there something rather than nothing? *g

if you answer and question then an explanation of why that is your answer would be appreciated. this seems to be one of those "no wrong answer" situations.

the price of entry to this thread is to answer at least one question. answer an question honestly, and you can ask an question that will get added to the first post.

http://podcastone.com/pg/jsp/program/episode.jsp?programID=593&pid=482356
listen from 21 minutes to about 28 minutes. what do ya think ?

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Merlin on 21 February 2015 07:31:12 PM
I 'spect folks'd be more inclined to reply if th'author first gave his position?
Title: is there an god
Post by: Mr X on 24 February 2015 01:05:40 PM
my answer is easy, i do not know.

with the spiritual aptitude of an filet mignon, after both deep and shallow introspection, i can say i am not qualified to decided wether or not god exists. that is my opnion, belief and experience.

i am aware other people do belief in god, and not all of them can be schizophrenic. other people dont belief in god, and not all of them can be smug douchebags. so from the side of the fence that doesnt feel or have and strong god concept, it is that simple - i dont feel it, god has never talked to me, it is sort of an non thing, just not there.

if i had to imagine and god, i guess it would be the whole universe all at once. and pre big bang whatever.

i am curious what god side of fence experiences.

do you belief in and soul like concept, or are you meat ?

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 25 February 2015 12:49:04 AM
at age 17, in a seance,  i was given at first the job to write down the letters the cup stopped on. they were often jumbled, and when someone asked  "did you mean ___?" the ghost" usually said "yes". i had the letters written, so i knew this was NOT what the cup marked. soon i stopped trying to voice it -  the others resented my interfering with their enthusiasm. and soon Margaret Clausner,  the lady who conducted the seances, gave the writing job to someone else claiming the ghost asked her to, "because she (i) don't believe in them".

there where, exceptionally,  2 clear massages: some family's late baby (as he claimed to be) who repeated on and on: "dad - mom - brother - Gil is here! Gil is here! Gil is here!" and a late dad who told his son "go to paris! go to paris! go to paris!"
(later i saw in a gossip column - the living son was slightly seleb - that he did go to paris. but for some reason i wander - did the suicide of his friend, the  poet Tirza Atar, who i think also been at that seance, had anything to do with all that?)

Tirza Atar singing in a military band. the lyrics written by her father, the poet Natan Alterman. it's her picture on the cover.

my favorite  - "song with no name", a poem by Tirza Atar, performed by Shalom Chanoch.
*edit*: generally, yes, i was quite covinced that what moved the cup was not the people (including me at some instance) who put their finger on the upside-down glass.  but whatever did, i didn't like most times. they were confused, emotionally puffed up, often misleading, confusing, taking down. with some more experience (once a dead aquainance chased us seance makers dangerously on a foggy road) i got to the practical conclusion - keep away!

~ ~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~

this is quotted from another thread:
years later, my late daughter Meitar contacted me after she died. but this, i reckon, was very very different: she talked to me from a time shortly before she died to a future time, in which she was dead.
i could see it right away  for it compares with another case which i knew very well.
how did i know? i remembered it from past life, which labels it dubious again - but not for me, not any more. in my personal experience it is checked, tried and true.

this happened in my life as  an Indian Lakota woman. i had a strong friendship with Chief crazy horse as a little girl - last saw him, before he died, at (my) age 11.
ever after he was talking to me, telepathically that is, leading me in my way. i reckoned it was his ghost talking; only at my last hour alive i reckoned that he did all the  guidance - during years of my time - from his last hour, before he was killed.

this is how i remembered the whole story in this life:
a dream: i am in a dormitory, many uniform beds with uniform grey wool blankets. it belongs to the church who gave us young Indian girls shelter when Indians where massacred.  my aghuru charlie tells me (telepathically) to take the blanket - a hand woven blanket made by my parents. (i was about to leave). i don't see how  i can find it - when i arrived i spread it on my bed, according to my aghuru's request, but the nuns didn't allow me break the uniformity, so i put it under the mattress, then  shifted beds several times, lost trace of it. to my surprise, i find it easily. [end dream]
(this associates with a story from this life - i lost my sleeping bag just on arriving - by hitch-hiking - to Marseille, dead tired. tried to nap behind a closed gate in a church. the priest called the police, whom i impressed (with a fake story) as a "bonne personne, pas closh" as he said to the abbess he called to get me a shelter.
well - when i dreamed it, i had the experience of many years being guided by charlie; as well as lots of past life memories; so i had no problem to accept the interpretation.
Charlie had been talking to me (telepathically) and guiding me any time i needed him, day and night, dream and wake, saved my life countless times, other times just kept me content by keeping me company,  many years in this life; not being aware of it from his daily consciousness, but - as far as i know - ALIVE.)

later i recalled more: my boy-friend took me from the monastery and we joined the Circus Black-Elk joined (reading the book "Black Elk speaks" triggered all these memories.)a year later i left the circus to search for my boyfriend who got into troubles. eventually i was caught by 3 criminals.
at a certain moment i said (in thought) to Crazy Horse (=Charlie in our current life)  "hey, you aren't talking to me from the time you are dead!"
- "no."
- "all this time?"
- "right."
"than from when?"
- [look and see]
it's the hour before you died!"
"yes. time stretches before death."
next thing i was about to get panicked; i noticed the sadist in the gang lost his patience with waiting for the others.
at that moment Crazy Horse said: "fire snake - jump! jump from your body!"
i jumped.
saw red before my eye - all red.
that's the last thing i remember.

~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~

back to Meitar.

this was at the end of summer 2009, after my dad got sick and died. i was living in his house.
one evening i left the internet cafe at Central station Jerusalem, went downstairs to pull some money from a machine,  noticed my disk-on-key was absent. went upstairs to the cafe, asked the waiter\tech helper - did you see my disk on key? a swiss-knife design? (cute one, a present from my sister. it contained a back-up of my computer, hopefully copies of scripts that been deleted.)
"no" he said.
i went downstairs, searched around - nothing. what else?  was about to give up and go.
then i heard Meitarie's voice in my mind, clear and strong, :
"mom, go on searching."
"OK."  i repeated my route, upstairs, downstairs, nothing.
"mom, go on searching." i got puzzled... "it's waiting for you in a drawer."

i went upstairs to the cafe, addressed the cushieress this time:
"did you find my disk on key?"
"let's see" - she opened a drawer.
there it was.
the waiter/tech help just arrived:
"oh, it's yours?"

        
days or weeks later, again at Jerusalem central station, early afternoon, i was about to walk out.
"meitari, it's not from the time you are dead you are talking to me? - "
"yes, it is the moment before dying. as was with charlie."
i was descending the stairs  when i had this strong vision (like "imagined" - not interfering with reality) of her walking out of the house at first light, going through all the preparations... climbing the chair...
"Meitari, jump!" i shouted (telepathically) at the right moment -"jump from your body!"
she jumped.

this i was surprised to notice before, when trying to "see": hardly any pain. now i saw, greatly relieved, that i was correct.

i walked on and on, through some religious neighborhoods, then empty fields, mountain slopes, a deserted car parking, streets again, singing the aghur^ah chant, and crying unrestrainedly.
it was nearly sunset when it was over. arrived at a buss station to go home.

ever after we were talking from time to time, the manner i'm talking with charlie. she did one crucial thing for me - weaned me from the habit of sinking in grief on remembering her. well, she said it in her letters, and in her diaries... yet it took some couching.

after few years her answers turned  laconic, and very rare.
go, Meitari. thank you for your great help. it's over and done. you are free to go.
(remembering her with joy, while i cry, and with so much admiration...)
          

imo ghost can talk to the living on some occasions.
"and it's good?" (this is a question little Meitar - up to age 4 or 5 - would ask when introduced to info she has no clue about)

but there are also some cases of people (rather "creatures") who contact loved-ones (or others?) from the short period of "stretched time" before their death into the others' future.
love exists, faithfulness exist. the legendary silver thread linking mother's heart to her children's hearts exist.
what else?
telepathy exists, you bet.

i have further-reaching conclusions, based on other experiences i experienced.
~ ~~ ~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~ ~~ ~ ~ ~ ~
actually - i was thinking for a moment to make a table of the experiences which conversed me from a tough atheist and non-beliefer (i was raised on non-belief) to someone who talks with god, remote people, plants, cats and dogs, alleys, petty tyrants, grammys and even some naguals... thelepaty and whatnot; mark different levels of convictioning by colors. but this is too much work...
but i could tell you some more stories if you are really interested.
what do you want me to tell?
as for the question i'm permitted (well - by my own gudgment as Mr X fixed the procedure) - i still have to check if i can edit other's posts, my geuss would be - no;

let me make it: why people are so dumb?

no, this is not politically correct!

OK - how come people get so stuck with extremely evil, harmfull, ridiculous beliefs? how come people sacrifise their babies to Satan or whatever unseen entities? how come seemingly normal people are cutting their new born boys genitals in a horribly painful way, mumifying then "slightly" for the rest of Life? how come Aztecs cut hearts of leaving people? how come people are so ready to convert to new age beliefs and be waiting to nibiru to save us all - how come people belif in aliens and space craft when they obviously are  just cartoons - or is it the other way around? is nibiru truly lurking to take us over? are aliens walking our streets and spacecraft feeling our skys - then how come it is not taken to be real by normal' scientific, society respectable members?
what's wrong with us humans?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Merlin on 27 February 2015 11:32:18 PM
Quote
have you ever had and experience that could be described as supernatural.

Yes and so I am absolutely certain there is something going on that science is unable to measure and the we are unable to control.

Tupe:
http://youtu.be/H4tAOexHdR4?t=7m20s
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 28 February 2015 08:46:58 PM
that is very interesting, but going to need some more details before it is and honest answer.

what was your supernatural experience, and why are we unable to control it.

im looking for at least two paragraphs here.

then you can add and question.* and after paying the price of entry, can freely post in this thread.
*there will be time this year when i am not here, so anyone with post editing access can add questions to the first post. provided the poster answered and question well. the arbiters to decide if an person has given and honest answer has to be self governed.

x
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 11 March 2015 06:59:52 PM
I don't know. I'm testing the waters. I feel like I threw away my life in my twenties. I spent most of my thirties trying to pick up the pieces. Amazingly... grace! I know that I don't deserve having a semblance of a productive existence. By rights, I should be... destitute? Dead? Sounds like the classical born again story... except it isn't. I'm not born again, I'm just punch drunk.

How does it feel? Or, what does it feel like... more accurately. The sense of god I have... I catch a glimpse - imaginary to be sure - of myself through a window, or on a TV or something. It seems like it's the part of me that's attached to god... who's... more impersonal... ineffable... it seems. The me I see is better than me. He's infinitely patient. We don't talk, but he gestures. Shrugs. Smiles.

I'm not crazy, it's a subtle conversation I have with myself. I make it, but it feels real. What Would Better Me Do?

I've not had a clearly supernatural experience. I've had only one auditory hallucination in my life, the only time it didn't feel like me thinking the words. I used to meditate... I thought I was pretty good at it. It felt like I was infinite, but two dimensional... flowing fast between two sheets of glass... I heard...

The Ice Computer Exists

I opened my eyes, and then it whispered...

...and it is alive...

I was doing a lot of drugs back then.

Peace  ;)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 16 March 2015 01:16:02 PM
hello,

catching glimpse of self part, could you explain that more. are you seeing and reflection of your self with the window or tv, or ?

i dont think you are crazy. it sound like it is working for you and worth pursuing.

ms z question has been added to first post, mr m and mr g need to post and question each.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 19 March 2015 08:30:16 PM
The way I have it... I think we all have an inner space where we hang our inner posters of inner countachs and inner pamela andersons. A space where you live when you are with yourself, telling yourself who you think you are.

I'm a funny one, me... It all started when... I suddenly realised... I was all like,d'oh!...  If only they could understand...  I knew it from the start... I started every sentence with an i... Introspection is an lost art... IMHO... I am...

But let's say you have this inner sphere with all the trappings that make you *you*. Your personality cave. If I say I catch a glimpse of myself, I don't mean literally. It's a sense that I'm here in the control room, punching the buttons that pays the taxes, but there's a version of myself out there in the aether that has shed my personality. I can "see" me on my inner cctv system... now it feels like he's cockily smoking a cigarette, grinning at my frustration.

I don't know anymore what that has to do with god, but I get the sense that my doppelganger is an agent of the infinite. Now, the most important bit is that this whole thing is an inner experiment that I've got carefully insulated so as not to touch my P's and Q's. If anything goes awry I can simply fade into a mode of existence that doesn't include funny little personality experiments.

But I think it's interesting anyway. Here is my question:

Why is there something rather than nothing?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 22 March 2015 03:27:11 PM
hello mr g,

the other day, i had and few minutes to check the forum while i was waiting for someone and i read that post. the post was interesting and sparked thoughts in mine brain, and i paused at personality cave, walked to the other side of the room, got and nicely rolled ciggarette, came back to my computer and was smoking and smiling at the end of that paragraph. i didnt quite do and double take, more of and eyes wide open surprise.

though i was smiling at the idea of "when you are with yourself". when i am not directly dealing with someone else, when i am on my own, i flood my mind with information casually, all the time. radio tv movies youtube internet podcasts audiobooks, laptop for netflix in the kitchen. constant consumption. i call it the holding pattern. it is very easy to not think. just use someone elses thoughts as your own, for the day. or the week.

but in that consumption, i see myself all the time. not so much myself as and individual, but more the human condition we all share. while i am sure i am obsessed with myself as much as and normal person, not instagram my breakfast obsessed, i dont give myself the time of day. except for sometimes.

i like why is there something.
why is there the universe, instead of not the universe.
i dont know.
why is there tacos, instead of not tacos.
because tacos are nice.
hmmm.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 23 March 2015 12:54:39 AM
Quote
X: why is there tacos, instead of not tacos.
because tacos are nice.
hmmm.
hmmm indeed.

why is there torture?
why is there slavery?
why Holocaust?
why my god allows it?
or does he?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 23 March 2015 07:07:14 PM
I like the holding pattern bit.

Quote
why is there torture?
why is there slavery?
why Holocaust?
why my god allows it?
or does he?

Maybe he/she/it isn't omnipotent.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 25 March 2015 08:24:44 AM
Sorry, that was a useless reply. What I meant to say is that I find it really interesting that you choose not to indulge your "inner monologue". I was always scared that I'll miss my one good idea if I don't listen to every word I think. It just seems that I'm not living if I'm not obsessively introspecting..

I now suspect i've had it backwards all along.. Any thoughts?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 25 March 2015 12:31:23 PM
G
(mr G? agent G?)

i hold back my wave of santimentality avoked by your (imcomprehensive, to me) story - ["are you OK"? "hold on?" etc]  -
...
Quote
Sorry, that was a useless reply.
not at all! i was about to answer it, just i'm on the road the last 2 days (and should be moving by now)

i'll make it short now to complete later:
Quote
Maybe he/she/it isn't omnipotent.

correct, as He confirmed to me - i'm the one who used to talk to yah [=god, god's will] as a baby to dad - and still can receive his occasional answer.
...i might right this story more detailed...
at the very beginning, after a session in which i experienced lot of past life pain, i asked him:
"god, are you always just\right?" (same word in hebrew)
he said: no - and rolled me laughing on the floor, for like 15 minutes.
- why?
-ya khachu khatul katan.
["ya khachu" is Russian "i want", "khatul katan" is Hebrew "little kitten". "i want little kitten".]
this again rolle me on the floor for long long time. after which i was exhausted.

took me few years to realize - "ya khachu" in Aghur^ah has something to do with torture.

only last month (after meeting some Russians, enlarging my Russian vocabulary in about 3 words) it occured to me to translate it properly (though roughly) from Aghur^ah:
"little kitten is very tortured."

analyzed:
yah= this sign: <[toward infinity]

khachu: cha= linked together [as for example dried clay]
chu= focus >into one point.
as most Aghur^ah words, this one is a paradigm - starting with "painfully focusing on one thing" [when intentfully doing so] . ending with "tortured into focusing on one [painful]sensation [when forced to do so].

Quote
. What I meant to say is that I find it really interesting that you choose not to indulge your "inner monologue". I was always scared that I'll miss my one good idea if I don't listen to every word I think. It just seems that I'm not living if I'm not obsessively introspecting..

I now suspect i've had it backwards all along.. Any thoughts?
thinking Aghur^ah whould have solved it... but ut's like saying "put some salt on the kitten's tail". once you are born, your Tamahtuphah can't keep open, thus you loose your knowing of Aghurah...
bye for now.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 25 March 2015 12:56:10 PM
hello mr g,

recognizing oneself through other people unfortunate does not result in and magical view of the beauty and amazing ways of humans.

due to there being so many negative aspects to the human experience. being human is and pretty wild and messed up experience. when i see and recognize the good parts, i want to be that, and when i see the bad parts i want to activly avoid being that. the bad does outweigh the good, imo.

and it seems like, the best way to avoid the bad is to try to limit self obsession. there is no doubt internal monolouge in the holding pattern, but it is mostly reaction to the externali stimuli.

backwards or not i cant say. i am sure there are positives and negatives for holding pattern or constant introspecting. when i consider exiting constant consumption i always wonder what then, what would i do.

i wouldnt say its an problem, but more of and thing - with god and meaning and fate and destiny, all those big concepts, how easy obsession can take place. like the panic that sets in the brain if you think about what was there before the univsere.
if everything is for an reason, if its all connected, if every action and not action changes fate, if there is meaning to any of it, how easy it would be to become consumed by it all.

mr x.

ps.
Maybe he/she/it isn't omnipotent.

maybe it is as much puppies, laughter and friendship, as it is cancer, violence and supernovas. an non omipotent god that just started the sim but cant change what happens is equally terrifying.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 27 March 2015 07:42:36 PM
I must say that you've piqued my interest with your immaculate consumption technique. Don't know why it hasn't occurred to me to indiscriminately flood my brain with other people's mild drivel in stead of my own inane unsense. Just think of the energy savings! And I'm not joking either. Don't know if it's a path with a heart, but it's a path. Have you seen the South Park episode where Stan becomes cynical? Everything he used to like literally turns to shit. I feel like that. I'm going to lower my standards and plough headlong through mediocrity. And I bet I'm going to love it.

Furthur!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 28 March 2015 08:34:05 PM
hello mr g,

i wouldnt say immaculate consumption is and technique. it is just the holding pattern. it is more subtle, listening to elevator music and not wondering if the elevator will fall.

what if your one good idea is an reaction to something else. that might be missed if consuming yourself instead of something else. or the other way around. so i dont recommend it, and i dont not recommend it. my experience and your experience could differ wildly. is it the one good idea to keep an eye out for, or the one good action.

Don't know if it's a path with a heart, but it's a path.

thats all it is. i think you would find quickly, it is not all indiscriminate, as it is you choosing what to consume. dont get caught in the trap of only using digital media. museums and art are good, and even the mix of both, church. the bigger old ones are good, but just anyone, get in as it starts leave before it ends. just mix it up so you are not in and echo chamber.

some cynicism and meatism even some nihilism seems healthy. everything turning to shit sounds depressive. maybe sorting through the bad for the good is an analogue for seeking agent infini-g. plough long and hard mr g, and prosper.

i wonder what weird and strange techniques we could come up with. "forum4 guide to exploring the supernatural and the life brain, the hard way."

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 30 March 2015 06:59:58 PM
This is a most interesting development.. But can you tell me one thing.. Do you know what the holding pattern is holding out for? In sport it could be used to "sit on a lead" or to play out a temporary disadvantage like a sent off player or injury, or to regain "composure" after taking some knocks. I can profit from both options 2 and 3. It doesn't matter, just curious. Also, do you have an idea of how long it will last, and what you'll do after?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 01 April 2015 09:29:12 AM
hello mr g

it is hard to describe even the most simple things. fun to try. as an result of casually talking about the holding pattern with you, i have had too at times pause the holding pattern to think my own thoughts about the holding pattern. so i had the answer to your question before you asked it, and am happy you asked.

put on your cynic cap then put on your ascended master of not giving and fuck hat over that.

Do you know what the holding pattern is holding out for

nothing.

you pay into it with ticks of the clock, with the agreement that you get nothing in return. like waiting, for nothing.

nothing is like the bass line. but more can be added, if desired. while you wait for nothing what would you do. sit and listen to the clock tick, or pass the time some other way.
when it comes to the nothing of the holding pattern, i like the lack of meaning fate or destiny. "not today, everything". i like that even good quality cynicism can be turned on itself, resulting is liking something.

why is there nothing, instead of something.

the sports ideas such as regaining composure, i could imagine it being used for that. only just, and not in isolation.

holding pattern lasts as long as you let it. i dont know what i would do.

what is it about the holding pattern that makes you so interested ?

mr x.

waiting for nothing doesnt have to be the worst thing in the world.

ps.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 02 April 2015 04:48:34 PM
It has an castaconceptual aspect to it, only better. Original, even. Something like facing oncoming time, or being impeccable. But it's much more subtle. It doesn't require much discipline, just a gentle reminder. "What else is on." Not just on tv. "What's that, there?" You may be a genius, or something  ;). I've been looking for a way out of this inverted mirror ball for a long time. I find it somewhat farcical to think of me... -me- ...as a warrior, or impeccable in any way. But as a consumer? I can dig that. I've had a fun few days, I just hope I can sustain it. I hope I don't forget about it, or start philosophizing internally about it. Also, it's not a big deal. But it's great. Thanks.

:pop:
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 06 April 2015 04:18:03 PM
Quote
x man: maybe it is as much puppies, laughter and friendship, as it is cancer, violence and supernovas. an non omipotent god that just started the sim but cant change what happens is equally terrifying.

about 26 years ago i danced  for someone on the question "why is there evil?", after noting to him that usually i would avoid impersonal questions,  but for him, for that person, the question IS personal [?]; the answer was- as much as i remember, and as much as i'm allowed to tell in public an answer to someone's personal question: a pain in the shoulder (which i felt, physically) prevents Yah from doing big circular motions with one of his arms, causes him to do small circles instead.

[knew already - my own recieving, or seeing? not communication, dance or otherwise - that he's not omnipotent. this dumb idea was spread by guys who tried to blame him for their own evil deeds]

on later occasion yah surprisingly interfered in my internal dialogue (very rarely he would, very rarely so verbally): "you see? power corrupts - if i break my own or other's formulated lows, [=lows are made by the groups to which they concern, local populations, and Spirits of Areas are the policing forces] i'll get corrupted as a result. what is worse - a world in which i can't interfere directly in evil doings, or a world with a corrupted evil god?"

he too couldn't have carried the ring...
only frodo could.

but what puppies have to do with cancer or supernovas, 2fd?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 07 April 2015 12:41:24 PM
hello mr g,

You may be a genius

that would explain why my employer sometimes calls me einstein. as an possible genius expert, i should purchase some elbow patches for my jackets.

castaconceptual is interested. as former casta readers, for the rest of our lives concepts like limiting self obession or changing internal monlouge will spark some recognition and association with casta. even though the concepts are simple and general. for non casta readers talk of internal monologue or the perils of self obsession are just that, conversation about things everyone understands.

it would interested to see how various former readers and former beliefers see such concepts after so much elapsed time. there has to be at least one person who said "casta is a fraud, i am going to go back to being self important". just and interested thing.

even if warriors were real with all their impeccable and magic like in the storys, few people would qualify.

mr x.

ps.

ms z, why would yah have an shoulder ?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 08 April 2015 08:42:41 AM
Quote
ms z, why would yah have an shoulder ?
ouch, that cold shoulder hurts... but i guess i deserve the Reprimand, sir. eye, eye!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 09 April 2015 03:51:21 PM
hello ms z,

a world in which i can't interfere directly in evil doings, or a world with a corrupted evil god?

how would you be able to tell the difference. in both versions puppy dogs would get cancer.

it is not an cold shoulder. in an thread where we are wondering if anything supernatural even exists, saying "oh by the way god, the guy who created the universe, he told me this and he has an hurt shoulder" , how am i meant to respond.

it does seems unlikely that the creator of the universe worked its way into your brain to tell you it cant do anything. if it cant interfere in evil doings, can it interfere in goodly doings ?

that is your experience and report, i appreciate it, but dont expect others to automatically agree just because you feel strongly about it. and dont be offended if others do not agree.

as most supernatural lore is based on eyewitness testimony, it brings the idea of how do we determine the good from bad, how do we explore the supernatural.

non omnipotent god is interesting.

frodo was not that great an ring bearer. samwise was an good ring bearer bearer.

mr x.

ps.
aye aye ?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 15 April 2015 09:52:08 PM
how do we explore the supernatural ?

this is not one with an good answer. we could listen to people, read watch listen to their reports. research written records, watch crappy tv shows, learn the general lore. .and it all results in lots of words spoken and listened to, is that exploring ? is hearing about something exploring.

so i propose we add some sort of interactive actiony bit to this thread. questions can be added to the first post, and proposed actions can be added. for example, z, you belief in god, is there and action or technique or some sort of activity that could lead to some sort of experience of your god.

i think it would be interested to try out stuff, without beliefing in it or being invested. just looking for direct experience, wether is is strong weak or novel experience..

i was think about this due to talking with g. constant consumption is version 2 of and older thing. version 1.5, which was un named, was and reaction to the terrible brutal version 1.

1.5 was pretty simple. try to find a ghost. no cameras or voice recorders or anything. a torch, some water and an knife. be alone. no thoughts of capturing and ghost and proving ghosts. only to capture it as your own experience.

you can do the old trespass, or you can pay people to have the place to yourself. with the trespass there is the chance of meeting something worse than the dead, teenagers. they might make fun of you, or they might offer you pot. there is also the chance of junkies and crazys. and hobos, they are good to talk to.

being alone in the dark, quietly exploring and supposedly very haunted location, gently following every bump and creak, swearing there must be someone else there, in the room you were just in were there was noone. if an disembodied voice were to occur i wouldnt hear it due to my heart in my ears. be calm, quiet and cool, try to find a ghost. dont think.

i havent done that recently. researching and considering the location was fun, but the experience was more than that.

mr x.

ps.

i am dissapointed at the lack of participation from j and t in this thread.

ppss.

what is love, or what does love got to do with it ?
mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 19 April 2015 06:57:04 PM
"... participation from j ..."

Hey I am here and reading this thread with interest.  Maybe not really understanding much of it, for example the consupmtion stuff, but hoping that as the thread develops it will gradually become clearer to me.  Anyway, as regards the main theme, my recollection is that you are going to read Sanchez and we are scheduled to debate it when u have done so.

"we are scheduled to argue about sanchez next year mr j" (24th dec 2014)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 19 April 2015 07:43:58 PM
what is love, or what does love got to do with it ?

In a meat sense (but not meant cynically), I think it's probably hormones that affect certain areas of the brain where certain subsections of the main meatprogram is stored. These subsections include, but is not limited to:

Pair bonding (to facilitate mating and child rearing)
Maternal / Parental bonding (to promote survival of the genes)
Team bonding (probably a hunting thing)
James bonding (a cheap, silly joke)

From wikipedia, on the hormone Oxycontin:

Quote
Recent studies have begun to investigate oxytocin's role in various behaviors, including orgasm, social recognition, pair bonding, anxiety, and maternal behaviors. For this reason, it is sometimes referred to as the "bonding hormone". There is some evidence that oxytocin promotes ethnocentric behavior, incorporating the trust and empathy of in-groups with their suspicion and rejection of outsiders.

In a mystical sense, one can do no worse than to quote "the wickedest man in the world":

Quote
"IT IS WRITTEN that 'Love is the law, love under will.' Herein is an Arcanum concealed, for in the Greek Language [Agape], Love, is of the same numerical value as [Thelema], Will. By this we understand that the Universal Will is of the nature of Love. Now Love is the enkindling in ecstacy of Two that will to become One. It is thus an Universal formula of High Magick. For see now how all things, being in sorrow caused by dividuality, must of necessity will Oneness as their medicine... Understand now that in yourselves is a certain discontent. Analyse well its nature: at the end is in every case one conclusion. The ill springs from the belief in two things, the Self and the Not-Self, and the conflict between them. This also is a restriction of the Will. He who is sick is in conflict with his own body: he who is poor is at odds with society: and so for the rest. Ultimately, therefore, the problem is how to destroy this perception of duality, to attain to the apprehension of unity.
- Aleister Crowley, "De Lege Libellum"

(Wickedpedia)

(not really)

I hope other participants can provide more positive inputs on this matter.

Regarding the ghost hunting thing: No way, Xosé. I don't believe in ghosts, but that doesn't mean I'm not scared of them. I can't even watch scary movies. Also, heart attacks: Avoid.

But don't let me stop you...

Talking of inner Countachs...

(search for kung fury if vevo denies you)

PS Since I changed my ringtone to the theme from Knight Rider, I pity the unsolicited sales caller who dares disturb my slumber...
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tosk on 20 April 2015 07:16:10 AM
Well, like ju4o (sort of), I was waiting for this thread to get more of a focus.

I will say however, stating that Sam would have made a better ringbearer than Frodo,
is a little silly.

He only carried the ring for, what, half a day?

Hell, I could do that.

<cough>
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 21 April 2015 05:52:40 AM
hello mr t,

for some focus, try answering and question and asking and question. maybe with some more input we could get more of and base of thoughts on the table, and an better sense of how we each view things. from there maybe the focus or definintion would form itself, or we could determine what and how to explore. if there even is anything to explore.

tangents will happen. the only difference of this thread from the countless times on the internet people have talked about the supernatural, is the participants. thats all we have going for us here, so the beliefs experiences and thoughts of the participants is part of it, if not it. even if it strays into not supernatural things, such as internal monologue or counstasches. if you have any idea of how to explore the supernatural, then please say. surely you have views about this.

mr g, no wonder you cant be an impeccably warrior, isnt that the first thing, dont be an scaredy cat. you need and training montage of watching progressively scarier movies, until you can conquer your fear of conquering your fear of things that go bump in the night. kung fu monk heartbeat lowering skills would solve the heart attack problem i assume.

that tupe and the trailer are amazing. that is one excellent inner countach. i think you are now lord of the tupers. the crowley quote also excellent. inner hoff is great, then i remembered reality.

mr j, you can start and thread for snachez at youre leisure. and i will contribute at my leisure.
there is not much to understand about consumption stuff, it is not supernatural and this thread is not about it. i did enjoy talking about it with g.

x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 28 April 2015 11:55:54 AM
I'm listening to the audiobook of an early AC Clarke novel, The City and the Stars. It's not his best work, but that's fine, it's from the 1940s. It's uncanny how he predicts virtual reality at least 50 years before it became a possibility. He even has a black hole in the story, a good 30 years before that became well known. He's probably most famous among non-science fiction readers (science fiction non-readers? J4?) for the statement "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic". It's from a set of "laws" called Clarke's Three Laws, which I quote here for some reason.

Quote
1.   When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2.   The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3.   Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

(Wikipedia)

In The City and the Stars, there is a group of people who communicate telepathically, and all people are able to command machines telepathically. This is a fairly common theme in science fiction, but in my opinion, one of the more far-out notions. I don't know how or if Clarke explains telepathy (I've not finished the book), but in this case I think it's closer to magic than technology.

If we were to try and pseudo-explain telepathy and mind reading, we have to assume that one being's brain is able to receive impressions made in another being's brain. Thus, we must assume that the thought-impressions:

(a) radiate through a medium in a decodable form, or
(b) cause radiation through a medium that cause sympathetic "vibes", or
(c) originate from a common source that is readable by both parties.

If you feel I've left something out, please add to the list. In the first two cases, we have to postulate the medium. It seems unlikely that it would be simple electromagnetic radiation, because I don't think we have the equipment for it. Also, surely science would have discovered this before. In any case, we would have to revive the idea of "the luminiferous aether", or something even stranger.

Another problem with (a) is that we'd have to assume that all nervous systems and though patterns are identical, and that when you think "apple", it generates a coded signal that, when received by me, activates the corresponding thought form in my brain. That would mean that if we monitor your brain, we should be able to point to a bunch of neurons and say: Look, this means "50%", this means "off", this means "day-old" and this means "doughnuts". The scenario seems far-fetched to me.

With (b) we can point to "archetypes" as a possible common set of codes. Perhaps when you think of a scary movie monster, part of your brain oscillates at a frequency corresponding to the "bogeyman" archetype. So I may interpret that you are scared of something, but I wouldn't know if it was the Alien, Freddy Kreuger or the Grinch what stole Xmas. So, it may be a useful tool, but not exactly high resolution.

As far as (c) is concerned, that would imply that all consciousness (or large parts) come from the same source, i.e. "God", or something. In this scenario, we might imagine that we are tethered, by an umbilical cord-like thing which extends into an unseen dimension of space, to the holy Mainframe. Here, a thought had by an outer head is relayed to (or relayed by) the inner head, and becomes accessible to another outer head, either by requisition or by hacking.

Well, this post is getting too long, but I look forward to your posts addressing "The supernatural seen as technology".

A good day to all.

PS It is already possible to command machines by thought alone, but I believe this simply monitors blood flow in the brain and that would require that you wear a sensor cap. Come to think of it, that's what Clarke described in 3001: The Final Odyssey.

EDIT: Erratum - The sensor cap measures electrical activity (EEG), not blood flow. That would be FMRI.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 30 April 2015 12:40:25 PM
hello mr g,

from the wiki page city of the stars sounds like and interested story.

there was something funny in this thread. one lazy weekend afternoon, after mowing the lawn and raking the bark, chirping the birds and meowing the neighbourhood cats, i looked at forum4 and read and post by z. "ohwww", "that was close" i thought. i raised my hand from my mouse and pointed at the screen and grunted something like "hrumph", my woman friend sighed, put her laptop down on the sofa and came over to look. she said "oh, that was close" .

nice little story, but it is about something that didnt happen. z almost pinged me, but missed. if she had of been more accurate, i dont think i would of considered it an sync, but something else, i am not sure what. i am happy she missed, even though it would of blown my mind if she landed on the mark.

regards to telepathy,

with (c), what if there was and god, and it died so long ago we cant even imagine. we are so deep in the sim verse that even connection to the mainframe means nothing but the chance of being aware of the tether. and hacking, whatever that is (it sounds exciting).

with (b), archetypes are good and descriptive, but i get the impression that mixing sympathetic vibes with archetypes is over simplifiying. say with music, if the orchestra was trying to give and impression of the alien, it wouldnt just be one easily identifiable note. it would be and combination of lots of things, lots of timed complex on and off switches. they could play and standard spooky tune and invoke the boogey man, in and archetypal easily recognized way, or do something more abstract.

with two people, trying to telepath, say they are 2 switches. on off, off on, on on, off off. four positions, and one state. and some spooky distance action.

and simple state might be the sender of telepathy saying they are scared, the reciever understanding the archetype of scared. both in the on position. with something like telepathy that is beyond the meat program so therefore in the ether, why would it be so simple. why wouldnt the the signal sent be hundreds or thousands of states, simple switches that paint and complete image in code. i dont know, interesting to think about.

x

i have been listening to flowers for algernon. in text this quote doesnt have the impact it had in the voice of the narrator, but i liked this quote.

Quote
June 24 - Today I went on a strange kind of antiintellectual binge. If I had
dared to, I would have gotten drunk, but after the experience with Fay, I
knew it would be dangerous. So, instead, I went to Times Square, from movie
house to movie house, immersing myself in westerns and horror movies-the way
I used to. Each time, sitting through the picture, I would find myself
whipped with guilt. I'd walk out in the middle of the picture and wander into
another one. I told myself I was looking for something in the make-believe
screen world that was missing from my new life.

Then, in a sudden intuition, right outside the Keno Amusement Center, I knew
it wasn't the movies I wanted, but the audiences. I wanted to be with the
people around me in the darkness.

The walls between people are thin here, and if I listen
quietly, I hear what is going on. Greenwich Village is like
that too. Not just being close-because I don't feel it in a
crowded elevator or on the subway during the rush but
on a hot night when everyone is out walking, or sitting in
the theater, there is a rustling, and for a moment I brush
against someone and sense the connection between the
branch and trunk and the deep root. At such moments
my flesh is thin and tight, and the unbearable hunger to
be part of it drives me out to search in the dark corners
and blind alleys of the night.

ps.
i have generated numbers from and random number generator online. four times. i have noted these numbers. anyone is welcome to guess them. between 1 and 50.

ppss. this discussion
http://i.imgur.com/EMrknJP.jpg

edit pppsss
to mention for novelty, i closed the tab that i took the algernon quote from, and i re googled it as i wanted to look at the text more. second hit on google was forum2.org. what is the quote at the top of forum2, but
http://www.forum2.org/
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 30 April 2015 06:23:02 PM
x man - which of z's stories? and why you say it didn't happen?
(wanted to open new thread, but - end of buttery.)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 02 May 2015 08:26:02 PM
hello z,

it is not and big deal. it happened, but it is and story about something that almost happened, was close, but didnt happen. and story about an arrow that missed the mark. i am not going to tell your which z post as i am happy you missed.
i knew at the time you didnt know you even missed. i had been wanting to mention that story, when g raised the topic of telepathy and mind things it seemed like the right time to mention it.

only for and few actual seconds did i get the heebie jeebies at the thought of being pinged, 2 or 3 seconds. it raised to mine mind to realise that, for no good reason i assume the things i dont belief in have no effect on my life. i assume people cannot ping people, in the meat program that is not possible, so even to consider it for and real moment is and pretty strong disruption, and seemed worth mentioning.

g,

back to telepathy, with (c) i say there is no need to bring god into it unless we were out of explanations, for (b) archetypes are to simple,
with (a)
regardless of the way the signal is sent or recieved, it has to come down to 2 things. the complex activity in one brain being replicated in the complex activity of the receiving brain. and simple thought may be very simple, and i am no brain expert, but the inner activtiy of the brain to produce that thought is not simple.
does telepathy only work if both sender and reciever speak english.
what if either has bad grammer. does it work then.
is language and barrier.
if we are talking about two or more brains replicating the activity of each other through some unknown way, why would there be and sender and receiver. it seems like it would more be and mushed up coalescence that would be hard to make sense of from and outside perspective.

x.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 03 May 2015 05:18:52 PM
x

grr brrr be happy or sad, why riddles? if you tell me which story, will it change my missing into hitting the mark? are you happy "i missed" for sheer nastiness, or you you have and reasonable reason?

with the little time i have on-line, i give up.

an outlet is available - but i have to go. so many things, including my new thread, (wanted to consult you gents about riot games insisting i am registered there, and this time there is no back address to send them to hell, and the announcement says "if you think this iis mistake... consult your help board" or something to that (?) effect.)
wish me pleasant walk back.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 04 May 2015 07:17:04 PM
hello z,

not riddles. if it was anyone else from the six of us here the story would be the same. happy it missed. if anything take it as an compliment that you unknowingly momentarily spooked me. as you were not aware it happened and cant figure it out without hints then we can just mark it as an minor random sync and that is all.

if i said the sum of the 4 random numbers, and which number repeated, guessing the numbers and getting it right would have less value.

no sheer nastiness for you. we see things very differently. that doesnt mean we have to be in conflict.

i hope good things happen to you, and i hope you figure out an way to have unlimited outlets and internet and i hope you are safe and happy.

x.

ps. unpung ? unpinged ?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 05 May 2015 05:52:23 PM
does telepathy only work if both sender and reciever speak english.

Interesting thought. For instance in "What women want" Mel Gibson can "hear" the words they think. Also in the TV show "The Listener". It's language. So maybe the brain does have a bunch of cells that only recognize "u" sounds and some that only do "a" etc., and they are standardized and therefore when you think in language you are actually activating the sound recognition bits in the brain. So presumably, if such cells can be remotely stimulated, but whatever means, it would mean that you are actually "hearing" sounds, just skipping the hardware and going straight to the wetware. So you are not really communicating by thought, it's something like "Speech 2.0". The language compiler in your brain still has to interpret it.

So under this system of telepathy, the transmitter and receiver must have at least one language in common. Now all you need is to explain how transmitter cells in A toggle receiver cells in B remotely, and we have a working ish explain of "remote hearing".

PS: I guess 2, 12, 12 and 40.

PPS: It was the cat, wasn't it?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 05 May 2015 09:51:08 PM
hello g,

speech 2.0 is interesting. cells for u and a, it sounds like something meat would think. as if thoughts could generate enough energy to vibrate some bones, just enough the bones of and person close could receive it. and it would be conveniently like hearing. all neat and tidy. i have been leaning towards more of and "universal translator" element in it, hypothetically. not the same as word talking and hearing.

(c) allows for that sort of weirdness. but it seems too easy an explainer. the mainframe does it, the energy does it, the luck does it.

if you posted and scientific paper about how a toggles b remotely, i probably wouldnt understand it. so i am less interested in the how it works, more in the if it works. do you think telepathy is something we should explore ?

the random numbers are in the order generated

2
-
-
-

x

ps.
two more numbers to go. weirdly, even with g guessing the first number in the sequence as the first try, i didnt feel anything. no shock or suprise. business as usual. i felt more suprise at seeing mel gibsons rom com mentioned.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 06 May 2015 05:09:52 PM
un-ponged?
king-konged?
why don't you start by defining "pinged", x-man?

thanks for good wishes

seems they work - but as Justice, not very fast...
until your wishes will hopefully bring an outlet under my full control... let me enjoy... other things.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 07 May 2015 07:17:38 PM
Someone should have pointed out that writing is speech 2.0...

I was thinking that "supernatural" just means "not understood yet". Maybe that isn't the right way to think of it. Maybe it means "not for you to understand". "None of your beeswax, buster."

I still have the nagging feeling that supernatural stuff happens all the time. Weird feelings, synchronasties, that kind of thing. I have no better reason than that.

A long time ago one particular friend of mine had the habit of starting to hum whatever song I happened to be thinking of. I wondered if maybe I was unconsciously humming or whistling it, or we heard it together somewhere, or a particular word or phrase triggered it. I wrote it off as one or all of those, but it seemed to happen a lot, and seemingly only with him. Have you had similar experiences?

PS I have been bothered by the number 37, to the point that I'll be disappointed if it's not one of your numbers.

PS2 Hello tally-ho!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 08 May 2015 01:45:33 AM
generally speaking

2.0 speech being writing didnt occur to me. it is interesting how we view things differently.

I still have the nagging feeling that supernatural stuff happens all the time. Weird feelings, synchronasties, that kind of thing. I have no better reason than that.

even though i agree, it puts us back at square one. sync stuff is common and popular at forum4. even if we each posted walls of text, explaining how each thing links to each, i dont think that is enough. it is common. i do get the feeling there is weirdness available with lots of things.

"not for you to understand". "None of your beeswax, buster."

not for you to understand sounds like and challenge.

i have had similiar experience, it is called forum4.

37 was the hidden number, it was the number generated to check if the random number generator was broken. it is not one of the numbers, i was going to mention there was and 5th hidden number but chose not to.
i am not kidding. 37 was the fifth number.  but the remaining numbers remain hidden. i was concerned the next guess would be accurate. i can imagine that it would appear that mr x is just saying the numbers are correct.

i was thinking after the guessing of 2, we need some sort of locked encrypted blind way of holding numbers if we try this again. using the technology available we have to be able to lock the answer, so its an revelation when correct. there has to be an way to hold information without it being manipulated.

x.

z, justice is and interested concept,
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 09 May 2015 10:05:10 AM
I would guess X is happy that Z missed because it means X's world view stays intact. To have a world view shattered can be quite upsetting so it is reasonable to be happy when it is not shattered, no nastiness involved or implied.

G guessing 2 is another matter.  However, one may take comfort in the fact that 2 might not actually be a random number at all.  At least, the question has been raised:

"Is 2 a random number?"

~Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming volume 2 ("Seminumerical Algorithms") page 2 (Addison-Wesley, 1969)

In fact, googling the question "Is 2 a random number?" (in quotes, for exact match) gives about 87,200 results.

For comparison, googling the question "Is 1 a random number?" gives only seven results, and googling the question "Is 3 a random number?" gives a mere three results.

Not only that, but one of the three results obtained for "Is 3 a random number?" is actually wrong.  If you go to the referenced page, it says

Quote
Knuth's book is written in an entertaining manner that describes
how one assesses randomness. After asking "Is 3 a random number?" he describes
a program he wrote one time to compute really exceedingly outstandingly random
numbers -- involving several of the traditional techniques like multiplying and
taking the middle digits, and even branching to a random place in the program --
and finding highly disappointing results upon testing it.

Shocking.  My confidence in the accuracy of googled references is shattered.

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/k2.jpg)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 13 May 2015 11:07:16 AM
While 2 was a wild guess, it is true that there was a greater probability that 2 was one of the generated numbers, especially in the light of the difficulty machines have in generating randomness. I offer this link to a wikipedia entry, if you will accept it as an informal reference in this quite casual discussion of causal discontinuity.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benford%27s_law

Today's guess is the number 45, and 14 for the bonus ball.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 13 May 2015 03:17:59 PM
lost you even more completely then before. what are these number you are guessing?

as for x's world chance to be shuttered by a story of mine (according to Ju4o) - no research, 4no outlet time, but let me guess:

it's about  people - Meitar and Charlei - guiding me for years of my life for the last moments of theirs?

lacking the symmetry of me guiding someone as well when jumping from my body at such a moment?

should be easy to believe, right? just symmetrical. but alas, i don't remember anything of this kind

there was time, when my son was 7 or 8 months old, when i thought i'll meet Charlie shortly, dances (on questions - used them often to decide my next steps) repeatedly showed me: i meet this person, then that one, that one, that one, [i met then - the order mixed slightly] then Charlie, and we[=the tribe or part of it] take off to the sun.[=castaneda's "final journey" - or what does he call it? the sun is the gate to the next dimensions field.]
but then i arrived to the country where he was supposed to be and  heard he left.
few years passed... then one day he [=Charlei, left-side of awareness] addressed me (a rare event, usually he let me address him before communicating) to say  - "you" (me) "are guiding me for several years, from your left side of awareness, the way i'm guiding you; i know about Chalil's (my son) birth; i know (other things, that i won't write here); and when we shall meet, our tamahtuphah* and that of some other saur** wil open."

from that day on he used to show me his travels on a map (canada, Niagara falls, great lakes, Peru, Colombia...) -
when my son was 3 we met eventually.

he was surrounded by a group of people.
pretended to ignore me.
i found myself behind his back.  nudged him slightly.
he turned. "oh, hello! long time! and here is something new!" (refering to my tiny boy)
"Charlie, where have you been?"
he named the place. not at all according to the map he showed me.
this was the moment i realized the whole story of him knowing all - the fighting included -  from me left-side was a lie.

so - no tamahtuphah was opened.
when we eventually  left my son got sick and was near to death.

when this was over i told Charlie [left side]"you are not my leader any more." he answered by gesture of respect.
but soon i let him save my life once more, and things returned to routine.
anyway - ever since, i don't want to hear about me guiding people from left side.

this might be a trick - a good one - to keep such a thing secret.
but i don't know.
have no proof.

well - few years later we met again, and on some opportunity i warned a friend who guessed the truth, that Charlie is "my Aghuru", never to tell him that - "it might risk his life", i said.
what happened ever after i don't know.
anyway -

a dream is the only hint of my involvement in  such weirdnesses - the dream about me and "my team" of 5 driving out of a forest in a green jeep, bumping into a scaffold were a mass execution was performed,  including us. we are standing, on the ramp, waiting for out turn, busy directing future events - but i don't know how - don't remember - time streches, it's not like we'll die in 10 minutes - more like we'll die in a year, no fear of death, and we were very occupied with what(ever) we did.
but this was not like guiding a person along a period - it was rather like interventing in points in many different non-sequential events.

or did you expect me to remember myself guiding someone for it would approve something YOU rmember, x?
just logical assumption.

ps: the same looking green jeep getting out of a forest i saw shortly later in a you tube posted at Facebook by my "Facebook friend" (at the time) https://www.facebook.com/sireen.manuyara?fref=ts - there was evil edifice in that forest, and few woman made camp fire, but the talk was Russian, have no clue.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 13 May 2015 03:22:40 PM
hello,

j, the reasoning of not wanting worldview shattered seems sound. in someway deep down that is probably and factor.
in practical terms i am not comfortable with the idea that people can just pluck thoughts out of and other persons mind. i am also not comfortable with any version of "we are all connected".

if my worldview was changed to think mind reading or telepathy was possible, mine first thought would be to find and way to prevent those things from happening to myself. all along the way i would be happy of any conformation that all arrows miss their mark. then would i seek to try telepathy for my own.

with worldview changes, i am certain i would be upset at any world shattering event. only so much. not very much. when you hold youre mind and constantly change its location, what is there to lament.

45 and 14, no dice.

all the individual numerals have already been said. it now just the arrangement.
i am not tech savvy, i was thinking text file with info, encrytped with the info as the password. whoever generates the information sends the file to someones else so it cant be modified.
for now after i send this post i will try to private message send the remaining numbers to tosk. six of us, i made the numbers, tosk has the numbers, that leaves 4. everyone should guess once, for fun.

mr x.

good night.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 13 May 2015 04:52:28 PM
The way the number was "psychically communicated" to me was 4-5 (I'll explain later). Are 4 or 5 a number? Also in stead of 14 I should have picked 17. It's the number I picked for my Project Cars career.

Just clutching at straws.

(For my fellow non-native anglish spokers.)

PS Z, what's a tamahtuphah?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 13 May 2015 06:24:39 PM
G did amazingly well (post #40) if you look at the sum of the digits in each of his guessed numbers.

*edit* P.S. sorry I meant post #35
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 15 May 2015 07:44:04 PM
hello,

z, your death scaffold remembered me of the book i have been listening too this week, slaughterhouse five. somehow it is slightly easier to read your rambles after listenreading most of that book.

did you expect me to remember myself guiding someone for it would approve something YOU rmember, x?

no.

j, did you opt out and get the numbers from tosk, did i accidentally send the numbers to everyone, or can you read private messages ? for curiosity.
you are correct, i did not notice that. suprisingly close. and after reading the page pictured, broken rng seems less of an concern.

g, i am interested in the 4-5 story. 4 or 5 are not one of the numerals. still interested in the story.
more than the numbers, i am quiet impressed at parts of the straws tupe. i think that was better syncing than guessing 2. i dont know what that means.
when i am at forum4, and we have talked of the holding pattern, the thoughts of the origins of that are there, when i am here. especially last time i posted, as i had had so much wine by the end of that night i had to post with one eye closed. i was thinking about it lots, the fact that version 1* started from desperation.

and other thing i should mention, was and offline sync. i have yet to make my tinfoil suit to protect from connection, so this is and other story that i will not say. to make it simple in and basic fashion - imagine if and stranger walks up to you, they are looking for someone, you know the name even though the event is random. they mention some numbers as part of their looking. those numbers are in the forum4 random numbers. the experience is disconcerting due to the extreme unusualness. just and sync. worth mention only for high weirdness.

x.

*
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 16 May 2015 08:49:28 AM
Pms in smf are visible to admins.  The 's' in 'smf' stands for 'simple'.

G's guess was pretty remarkable not only as regards the sum of the digits in each number but in overall shape.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 16 May 2015 09:03:35 AM
X, this morning as I was getting ready to go out, I put a can of deodorant on a book I left on a shelf. I forgot what it was doing there - I was rummaging through some old books to find some I wanted to give to a friend of my mother's. I decided not to give her that one, I didn't want to depress her.

The next minute I read your post while putting on my shoes. The book was Armageddon in Retrospect, by Kurt Vonnegut. It is at least partially about Slaughterhouse Five.

The 4-5 thing is stupid. Apparently, in this country, the police have a form you must complete if you were assaulted. On this form there is a picture where different body parts are given numerical codes, so you may indicate where you were injured. The part labeled 4-5 is the... is the unmentionables. So now 4-5 has become a euphemism for a 4-5. Some of my colleagues were joking about it hysterically the other day; I failed to see the humour. I thought it was worth a guess.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 16 May 2015 09:51:29 PM
hello,

j, i dont mind, that seem fitting. the numbers were electronically passed from one person to another, and someone plucked the numbers from the system.

what do you mean by overall shape ?

g, you can opt out at any time. obviously there are limits on the amount of possible guesses. this is just and casual informal guessing game. if you want to know the numbers just say so.

say we were trying to invent gps, in our garage, and the very first time we turned on the system, it didnt locate the exact position, but it was pretty dam close.

to examine how the "pretty dam close" happened, to dissect and explore the details, seems like something that might have value.

i am okay with the idea that everything is stupid, and everyone is stupid. there are so many things that are hard to verbalise, and even if worded perfectly, the is no guarantee the hearer speaks the same language. it really is difficult to talk about some of these things, without bringing up minutiae and things that dont individually matter, but in and system they add up.

x
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 17 May 2015 09:34:22 AM
If G had guessed all four numbers correctly, none of us would have attributed it to supernatural causes, it would have looked too much like collusion.

So the "pretty dam close" aspect is interesting, it is a kind of balance between too close and too far.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 17 May 2015 07:21:20 PM
Mr J, I must point out that Mr X revealed that there was a repeating number in the sequence. Perhaps that is the shape you are referring to.

X, you may reveal the numbers if you wish. You're welcome to another round, perhaps others will also respond this time. You might put a twist on it also, if you want to. Perhaps you could decide not to use random numbers, and in stead pick the numbers yourself. Perhaps there is another dynamic involved, or perhaps not. It's just an experiment. To quote Clarke from a prior post:

"2.   The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible."

I know this is minutiae and we've kind of moved past the whole sync thing, but I was quite struck by the whole Kurt Vonnegut connection. I already noticed it before you mentioned SH5. This week I've learned twice (independent events) that there is a city in Texas called Kilgore, and heard a mention of "Breakfast of Champions" in a different context. KV has been my favourite author at various times, so I notice those things. Anyway, to celebrate a minor Kilgore related synchronicity, I would like to paste my favourite Trout tale here. I'm copying it from a reddit page, so I don't know how accurate it is (sorry J4). It's called "Dog's Breakfast", by Kilgore Trout and appears in Timequake, by KV if I remember correctly. It also has interesting correlations with what we're talking about, so I invite you to read it if you will.

Quote
" It was about a mad scientist named Fleon Sunoco, who was doing research at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Dr. Sunoco believed really smart people had little radio receivers in their heads, and were getting their bright ideas from somewhere else.
"The smarties had to be getting outside help" Trout said to me at Xanadu. While impersonating the mad Sunoco, Trout himself seemed convinced that there was a great big computer somewhere, which, by means of radio, had told Pythagoras about right triangles, and Newton about gravity, and Darwin about evolution, and Pasteur about germs, and Einstein about relativity, and on and on.

"That computer, wherever it is, whatever it is, while pretending to help us, may actually be trying to kill us dummies with too much to think about," said Kilgore Trout.
Dr. Fleon Sunoco at the NIH, who is independently rich, hires grave robbers to bring him the brains of deceased members of Mensa, a nationwide club for persons with high Intelligence Quotients, or IQs, as determined by standardized tests of verbal and nonverbal skills, tests which pit the testees against the Joe and Jane Sixpacks, against the Lumpenproletariat.
His ghouls also bring him brains of people who died in really stupid accidents, crossing busy streets against the light, starting charcoal fires at cookouts with gasoline, and so on, for comparison. So as not to arouse suspicion, they deliver the fresh brains one at a time in buckets stolen from a nearby Kentucky Fried Chicken franchise. Needless to say, Sunoco's supervisors have no idea what he's really doing when he works late night after night. They do notice how much he likes fried chicken, apparently, ordering it by the bucket, and that he never offers anybody else some. They also wonder how he stays so skinny. During regular working hours, he does what he is paid to do, which is develop a birth control pill that takes all the pleasure out of sex, so teenagers won't copulate.

At night, though, with nobody around, he slices up high-IQ brains, looking for little radios. He doesn't think Mensa members had them inserted surgically. He thinks they were born with them, so the receivers have to be made of meat. Sunoco has written in his secret journal: "There is no way an unassisted human brain, which is nothing more than a dog's breakfast, three and a half pounds of blood-soaked sponge, could have written 'Stardust,' let alone Beethoven's Ninth Symphony."

One night he finds an unexplained little snot-colored bump, no larger than a mustard seed, in the inner ear of a Mensa member, who as a junior high schooler had won spelling bee after spelling bee. Eureka!
He reexamines the inner ear of a moron who was killed when, she was grabbing door handles of fast-moving vehicles while wearing Rollerblades. Neither of her inner ears has a snot-colored bump. Eureka!

Sunoco examines fifty more brains, half from people so stupid you couldn't believe it, half from people so smart you couldn't believe it. Only the inner ears of the rocket scientists, so to speak, have bumps. The bumps have to have been the reason the smarties were so good at taking IQ tests. An extra piece of tissue that little, and as nothing but tissue, couldn't possibly have been much more help than a pimple. It has to be a radio! And radios like that have to be feeding correct answers to questions, no matter how recondite, to Mensas and Phi Beta Kappas, and to quiz show contestants.

This is a Nobel Prize-type discovery! So, even before he has published, Fleon Sunoco goes out and buys himself a suit of tails for Stockholm.
"Fleon Sunoco jumped to his death into the National Institutes of Health parking lot. He was wearing his new suit of tails, which would never get to Stockholm.
"He realized that his discovery proved that he didn't deserve credit for making it. He was hoist by his own petard! Anybody who did anything as wonderful as what he had done couldn't possibly have done it with just a human brain, with nothing but the dog's breakfast in his braincase. He could have done it only with outside help."

Edit: I just learned that Kilgore, Texas is the "home to the Texas Shakespeare Festival" (wikipedia), and of course "hoist with his own petard" is line from Hamlet. Sorry, I'll stop now.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 18 May 2015 09:19:54 AM
"Mr X revealed that there was a repeating number in the sequence", yes I know but you got right the fact that it's the middle pair which repeats.

I do have a question which is, how did you know the numbers would be in ascending order?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 18 May 2015 07:03:24 PM
hello,

If G had guessed all four numbers correctly, none of us would have attributed it to supernatural causes, it would have looked too much like collusion.

i agree. i would of know he was correct but there is no way i could of convince anyone else of that. if i was not involved and observing i would of become suspicious after guess of 37. encrypted file sent to all guessers only removes the ability of the number maker to modify the numbers later to fit an narrative. which means nothing if the number maker whispers the numbers to create an narrative. collusion, not sure how we can avoid that as an possible.

if an script generated the numbers and self encrypted, then no one knows the numbers. we are guessing numbers that exist at all. no telepathy or person to person connection. we could guess lottery numbers, numbers that are yet to exist. but that is predicting the future. for any close knit connection experiment someone has to know the numbers. that allows for the possibility of collusion as and explantation.

that leaves us with trust and honesty, which is unperfect. but all we have. is there and system that removes collusions and and possible ?

g,
2
30
30
31

37
(https://www.random.org/)
(last time i went to that site was to generate the numbers, first time back to confirm it was the site, i checked it was working, 45)
( i tried to look for some way to spoiler tag the numbers so you could choose to look, couldnt figure it out)

if someone picked the numbers, they could pick 1, 4 times. or pick the round one numbers.  or do something predictable like make each number different, spread out. it is interesting. we both know for certain there is no collusion here. the other 4 dont know that for absolute certain like we do. while this thread is not and survey, i have wondered about that. if 5 belief in god and 1 doesnt. someone is wrong, someone is right. or everyone is wrong, and everyone is right. weirdness.

trout is in other books than sh5 ? i like that. after sh5 - farenheit 451 is next. im trying to get through lots of the classics, then maybe something like some terry pratchett possibly. though it looks like i will be taking and detour through kurt v. when googling for lists of classics i found and thread on reddit book section and from there made and list of books to listen to when i am doing other activities. breakfast of champions came up in the lists.

so much minutiae, i like it. i am not sure we are past syncs/links. maybe. i am thinking of syncs being like the interesting point on and graph. two lines intersect, that is the point. from the perspective of the point, it happened noticeably, but it has no meaning aside from what one can personally assign if so inclined, it just happened. in the graph however, the data or information is in both the lines and the point of intersection. the origin and destination of the lines are the interesting bit, if there is any meaning or purpose, it would be in the lines.

x.

ps.
as and question, after watching movies like imitation game, chappie, ex machina, is there and turing style test for spiritual beings. such as, for all the people that claim to speak to ghosts and aliens and spirit beings, that claim to have control of their energy, is there and test to determine if they are being truthful ?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 18 May 2015 08:21:47 PM
hmm
feel very stupid

what do you want us to guess?
4 numbers you picked up by a random generator?

and this would prove what?
like 17,27,72,1?
OR HOW MANY DIGITS COULD THEY HAVE?

or like - what is it all about?
slouthterhouse 5 i used to like - the hands closing to say "you're stupid!" - but what about the death scaffold?

Quote
ps.
as and question, after watching movies like imitation game, chappie, ex machina, is there and turing style test for spiritual beings. such as, for all the people that claim to speak to ghosts and aliens and spirit beings, that claim to have control of their energy, is there and test to determine if they are being truthful ?

well - in one case, a person who suggested we make a siance, and i chose a person to call, insisted that i ask the spirit something only he and i could know - i asked him how old he was when we met, and he answered correctly - 39.

but the real motive of the 2 clowns who initiated this seance was - the hope to tempt one of us girls - they wanted to @&*%# no matter what. and the beauty between us was 17.
so can you say they where truthful?

x-san - since i didn't ping you after all (define ping?) now i am "rambling?"

let me ramble some more:

at the short period when God Himself guided me, the first thing he taught me was: that he would lie to me any time he finds it necessary. i guess it's what casta calls "controlled folly." same with Charlie. i gave some example how he lied to me. but i can  trust him for my life. as i do.
g - tamahtufah, and some other terms, yes, i have to complete. but next time.

no - found some old explanation:
it's an end note from here:
better read it there, for the colors cod that for some reason (not just the lack of time) i avoide copying here.

*tamahtufa the arrangement of energy centers in the energy body of a creature at the beginning of his evolution towards taking-of to the sun. in the end of his evolution (which takes many many lifetimes) this arrangement changes to be what is called " markaw ". The word has to do with Hebrew "mercavah " chariot.) the tamahtuphah is related to the markaw as a bud to a flower. For illustration: one who's tamahtufa got opened as a markaw would understand right-away any language addressed at him, and will be able to answer too. A markaw might get closed back to the tamahtufah phase as a result of trauma; an extreme tamahtufah closing is amnesia
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 19 May 2015 05:15:00 PM
Hope I don't disappoint, but I didn't guess the order, just the numbers. I put them in that order because that's how they announce lottery numbers.

Z's numbers looks like 14 divided by 11 backwards... almost. 1.272727

Now, just to be funny, here are some bible verses numbered 14:11. I typed 14/11 into google and noticed that's what came out.

"'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'"
(Romans 14:11)

"Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."
(John 14:11)

And for a darker turn:

"And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name."
(Revelation 14:11)

***

is there and test to determine if they are being truthful ?

I guess something like a polygraph would work, but that will only tell you if they believe themselves. I'm afraid you'll have to find a way to measure the supernatural directly. But maybe god don't want you to measure it. Remember the god from Futurama?

"When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all."
(Futurama 4:08)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 19 May 2015 07:07:14 PM
Well then it is the random number generator that is psychic as it generated the numbers in ascending order thus conforming to your convention.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 20 May 2015 04:04:36 PM
hello,

z, rambling is fine, i like to ramble. google ping and tell me what you think it means.

the rng was obviously not psychic nor cofirming to g convention. the numbers were generated for everyone. including you mr j. by everyone i mean the 5 possible participants. as you said, we now know why g arranged the numbers in that format, but how and why the numbers were guessed is still and mystery. why 37. why 2. that mystery is for you to explain mr g, not the generator.

g, are there any verses for the first set of numbers, for curiosity.

i dont know the facts but polygraph seems to have and bad reputation, not legit. if it did work yes, only show if they belief it, like the ways to beat and polygraph.
im not thinking about testing if people belief what they think, more - if someone claims they can channel and spirit, what would you ask the "spirit" to determine if it real.

in and lesser note, with syncs, say with and stranger, your cant grab the stranger and interrogate them until your mind is satisfied with all possible information relating to the sync moment. at least here we can examine and look at the weirdness and bit more closely.

there is the system where everyone picks and number, and sends it into the self encrypted file with no chance of electronic plucking. 6 minds, numbers revealed as guessed, no sequence.

if you could ask and question to the god of g or z, what would it be ?

ps i havent picked round 2 numbers yet, i will by the end of the month, between 1 and 30. above my computer monitor there is and calender, it there for only decorative reasons, and has been set to june 2015 for at least and few weeks due to the picture of the month looking nice. i rarely ever even notice it is there.

any "god doesnt want you to" business does not sit well. part jeebies. say there were 5 for god, 1 against. and i was the 1 against. i would review my thoughts on that, but i wouldnt want to switch on that view unless i actually felt or experienced it. the switching seems trivial, the belifing not trivial.

good luck trying to pluck numbers from my mind.

x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 20 May 2015 07:04:00 PM
"the rng was obviously not psychic nor coforming to g convention. the numbers were generated for everyone. including you mr j. by everyone i mean the 5 possible participants."

That is rather missing the point because part of the meaning of the rng being psychic is that it knew the only person who would actually make any guesses was G so it generated the numbers specially for him.

If you find this rather spooky well just remember that you asked for it.

I mean, if you start a thread called "general supernatural exploration" and ask in your first post "how do we explore the supernatural ?" and then in order to get more participants in the thread you start a psychic guessing game, it suggests that you are pretty persistently interested in exploring the supernatural.

And it's not like we got lots of people joining in and one of them was close.

We got exactly one person joining in, and that person was pdc (pretty dam close) ... to the extent that if it was any closer we would seriously suspect collusion.

Would you agree that things have worked out rather well?

Furthermore, the very first guess of all was completely accurate.  That is rather fantastic when you actually think about it.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 20 May 2015 07:45:07 PM
By the way I have another question:

Right after posting the foregoing I decided I'd better read through the relevant part of the thread again to check I hadn't got anything wrong, and I've just noticed (in post #53)

Quote
(last time i went to that site was to generate the numbers, first time back to confirm it was the site, i checked it was working, 45)

I didn't take that on board the first time around because I wasn't sure what you meant, and when that happens with your writing I usually just kind of let it go.

But what did you mean actually?  Looking at it again now, it seems to be saying that you originally visited the website random.org in order to generate the original 5 numbers, and then when you were writing post #53 you visited the site a second time in order to check the name of the website, and while you were there you gave it another go just to see if it was still working, and it generated the number 45.  But that would be borderline incredible, given the circumstances.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 21 May 2015 01:46:19 AM
j,

to be honest i dont belief in random number generators being psychic.

it is interesting to think that the rng had some sentient quality and it knew. lots of things are interesting. i would be interest what the guessed number of yourself or merlin would of been. it would be interested to hear your thoughts on anything.

general supernatural exploration is fine, and i stand by the question "how do we explore the supernatural".
it is untrue that that i generated numbers in order to get more participants. i just did it for the participants that are present. i am aware of the size of f4. it is true i would love to know all the thoughts of tosk and merlin and j, i am realistically aware that they are holding back. how hard it is to say if you belief in god or not. apparently too hard. in an simple gated system, dont have to put everything on the table at once, still too hard.

strangely, i am not weirded out by the guesses of g.
i dont know why. some things spook me, but these numbers didnt. 2 and 37 were curious, when you mentioned the adding up sums, there was some minor wave of excitement. aside from that i felt nothing. i do agree it worked out rather well, but i think we view things differently.

g was also the person interested in the holding pattern. i have typed and deleted many following lines to the previous sentance. so i will just say, nothing.

my thinking is that g is pdc (pretty dam cool).

your assessment of going back to random.org is correct. 45 out of 100. no way of proving. it was just and casual mention.

x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 21 May 2015 01:25:31 PM
Interesting.  Still borderline incredible, if I've understood you correctly, which of course is not sure.  Could you possibly clarify, at what point did the rng generate 45?  I mean, relative to the following snippets of conversation:

Quote
(1) G (post #41) Today's guess is the number 45, and 14 for the bonus ball.

(2) X (post #43) 45 and 14, no dice.

(3) G (post #44) The way the number was "psychically communicated" to me was 4-5 (I'll explain later). Are 4 or 5 a number?

(4) X (post #46) g, i am interested in the 4-5 story. 4 or 5 are not one of the numerals. still interested in the story.

(5) X (post #53) last time i went to that site was to generate the numbers, first time back to confirm it was the site, i checked it was working, 45

Another point would be if you could fill in some more detail for

Quote
(post #46) they mention some numbers as part of their looking. those numbers are in the forum4 random numbers. the experience is disconcerting due to the extreme unusualness. just and sync. worth mention only for high weirdness.

it's not clear if this story is literally true or just an example of the kind of thing which can happen, but if the story is literally true it would be interesting if you could say which numbers they mentioned.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 21 May 2015 09:05:25 PM
This should put an interesting twist on things: I actually dreamed of numbers. I wont bore you with details, mostly because I can't remember any.

Apparently, my unconscious mind picked:

2
12
15
30

If I had to pick, I wouldn't have chosen 2 or 12, since I've already used them before.

Edit: Oh, you haven't picked them yet... Just as well. 30 already heavily represented.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 22 May 2015 12:15:49 PM
Well this is rather embarrassing on two fronts, simply proving how uncool I really am. I forgot X said he hadn't picked the numbers yet, and then had a dreaming revelation that re-picked a bunch of numbers from memory. I do apologize, and look forward to further experiments. To make up for my silliness, I hope to brighten up your Friday by sharing this most amazing free energy device that you'll never believe actually exists and which scientists hate and at which you shall surely stand astounded.

Miffion accomplifhed.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 23 May 2015 12:03:02 AM
hello,

j, the exact position of 45 is, the rng generated the number 45 within and hour or two before posting  (5) X (post #53). the time delay is due to messing around with proxy/vpn stuff that day, the rng didnt work at first (it would load forever), and when it did load, 45. i mentioned it due to the obvious reasons, points (1 2 3 4).

g, that is very funny. you went off too early. picking the numbers before they have been picked seems as good and strategy as any. if you do, dont say them yet. dreaming is and interested tactic, i can assure you i wont be picking through that method.
round 2 has not been picked yet. i need and few days to look into encryption. who is to say if it will be 4 numbers this round. in round 2 there is the calender month of june 2015. the numbers will be chosen based on that, there is and visual reference this round, then marking them down on the calender. no powerball this time, but and image. not as many possible guesses either, 1 to 30. the number 15 has been removed from play.

j, with #46
that story is not literally true, it is just myself trying to simulate for you and story without actually telling the story.there is weirdness that is balanced, other wise it suggests collusion. there is weirdness that is not balanced. as such being cautious is reasonable. the actual story didnt directly happen to mine self, but to the woman i live with. in the full story there is enough detail that if i said it, you would have enough information to be able to walk up to my life. numbers were 313.

"And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." John 3:13

x.
ps,
g, it would be fun to make and funny youtube.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 24 May 2015 07:18:57 PM
pdi (interesting)

I was wondering if the numbers which occur in your story might be the numbers which G didn't guess.  Out of the rng numbers (2,30,30,31,37,45) G guessed 2,37,45 leaving 30,30,31 wandering forlornly around unclaimed.  Buffetted by the winds of psychospace, miserably unguessed.

So maybe they could have found a happy roosting place in your story.

In which case, 313 is pdc.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 25 May 2015 06:12:35 AM
Buffetted by the winds of psychospace, miserably unguessed.

that is very poetic.

i dont know about the happy numbers roosting theory. in reference to #46, the only time she has looked at what she once called "forum 4 nerds", was to look at the pdc of an z post, and to watch an major tom space tupe from g. she doesnt know about secret business and otherwise has no connection to the f4 system. if anything the 313 was and relief, showing it was random frakking coincidence. the weird part was the name the stranger was looking for, if there is such and thing as and bad omen, the name was an bad omen. traditional anti name. bad news for everyone. she has fallen ill. she will survive.

the 313

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 25 May 2015 05:35:52 PM
Mr J, would you elaborate on the concept of psychospace?

X, I watched that movie over the weekend and I thought it was excellent. I'm not scared of our robot overlords (yet), but let's see what comes.

Exciting times...
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 25 May 2015 09:15:04 PM
I would love to but (perhaps risking seeming to over-react) I'm tending to think the priority is to try to deal with the existential crisis which the forum has been thrown into, when I said 'borderline incredible' I was not joking.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 26 May 2015 02:05:23 PM
Yes okay but maybe you could talk about two things at the same time. It sounds like an interesting idea and I know you're not usually the kind of person that just makes something up because it might sound cool (unlike me). If it was just a throwaway line, that's fine, but I thought it was interesting anyway. "Psychosphere" also has a nice ring to it.

To the point, do you really think it was "borderline incredible"? I have serious difficulty with these things, I can't tell anymore what is incredible and what isn't. Maybe I've grown so used to coincidences like this that it has become uninteresting, and maybe that's the really incredible thing. Or maybe it just isn't incredible at all. Plus, you said borderline anyway. An outside observer would just say "lucky guess", and then point out all the irregularities with our experimental technique.

Please believe me, I have seen enough incredible things to make me default to belief in the supernatural. But I'm not sure I can trust my own judgment. The number guessing didn't seem strange at all to me. What seems stranger to me is the little coincidences I have around what we discuss here, but I don't even report them anymore. It seems boring. Give me your honest opinion of this:

1. I PVR an old South Park episode (S16E04, Jewpacabra), time stamped 23:40, Thu 21 May.
2. I watch it Friday 22 May, it's about passover and includes a hallucination of God killing the Egyptian first-born sons.
3. I'm struck by it, it seems ridiculous (as intended by the writers) and leaves me with an uneasy feeling about religion. It's memorable.
4. 23 May, Mr X posts reply #64 in this thread, mentions "numbers were 313", then quotes John 3:13 as a little in-joke.
5. I figure, surely the most appropriate bible quote will be Numbers 3:13. I look it up:

Quote
Because all the firstborn are mine; for on the day that I smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt I hallowed unto me all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast: mine shall they be: I am the LORD.

6. I go: "Hmmm..."

Well, I don't even know anymore.

(A little clip from the show)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 27 May 2015 05:23:41 PM
Hi G, no probs with any of that.  Your story, unlike X's, is unproblematically credible, I think.  Maybe a key difference is that your story does not monkey with the laws of probability, whereas his does.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 29 May 2015 12:47:53 AM
hello,

g, i generally think the same. as the syncs pile up reporting them becomes and chore. it becomes normalized that they happen more, so they become less interesting.

then there is the effect or result of not reporting, or reporting. say i have syncs about avacados. i dont report as it seems stupid to dedicate and ramble to avacados. then other people start making sync reports about avacados. then i come along with "oh yeah avacados, i have syncs with them". it is not and perfect system. another example would be if after round 1 numbers were revealed, someone comes along and says "i didnt post my guess but that was my guess". what to think then.

the little coincidences are the interesting thing, thought the numbers are not entirely uninteresting.

our thoughts diverge around the default belief in the supernatural. not being sure in trusting ones on judgement seems and overall healthy and cautiously skeptical view. this is something i have thought about. i dont have and good answer. the two options seem to be beliefing in something, or operating based on facts. and with the supernatural facts are hard to come by. how do we explore the supernatural. do we have to take small steps in belief, small steps in facts, combination, i dont know so i am asking. i probably should have and default belief in it. due to thread based introspection, i seem to want to belief in it as much as i want to not belief in it.

j, i may of asked for it. and by participating so did you. i would like to hear both your description an analysis of pyschospace and the monkeying of probability. what is the probability that of the pre emptive dream numbers of g, the "miss x" who was set to pick 3 numbers, picked 2 of those by g. she was very ill when choosing the numbers. which will soon be fixed with antibiotics.

round 2 seems to be broken already. we can still go through the motions. most likely i will just put and password on and zip file at this point. the image and 3 numbers. how do i distribute the file ? email or can it be uploaded to f4. for round three we need and better system.

it gets curious and curiouser mr j. so much is unsaid it can be added layer upon layer in retrospect.

x

g, i have been watching this show the past few late nights while nursing and sick person. just something to take the mind off things. nice little supernatural and classic monster mash up tales.
normally tales such as this are more to her taste
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 29 May 2015 12:04:23 PM
Psychospace is the space where psychic things happen.

Quote
what is the probability that of the pre emptive dream numbers of g, the "miss x" who was set to pick 3 numbers, picked 2 of those by g.

Nearly 2% (i.e. a chance of 1 in about 50).

Here is the working:

First we consider the case where Miss X has one guess, and then we expand that to the case where she has 3 guesses.

To calculate the chance of guessing (in one guess) any of 4 numbers randomly chosen in the range (1...50), the easiest way is to calculate the chance of guessing wrong, and then to subtract that from 1.

The chance of guessing wrong is the chance that her guess is not the first number, and that it is not the second, and that it is not the third, and that it is not the fourth.  Which is, (49/50) to the power of 4.  Which is about 0.9224

i.e. there is an about 92% chance that her single guess is wrong.  Thus there is an about 8% chance that it is right.

Now we consider the fact that she has three guesses.

It's easy to see the chance of all 3 being wrong: it is 92% cubed, which is about 78%.  Likewise, the chance of all 3 guesses being right is 8% cubed, which is about .05% (i.e. a chance of 1 in about two thousand).

The chance of exactly one guess being right is the chance that her first guess is right and the other two are wrong, plus the chance that her middle guess is right and the other two are wrong, plus the chance that her last guess is right and the other two are wrong.  That is 3 times 8% times 92% squared, which is about 20% (i.e. a chance of 1 in about five).

Likewise, the chance of exactly two guesses being right is the chance that her first guess is wrong and the other two are right, plus the chance that her middle guess is wrong and the other two are right, plus the chance that her last guess is wrong and the other two are right.  That is 3 times 92% times 8% squared, which is about 1.8% (i.e. a chance of 1 in about 57).

Putting this all together, and expressing it (for convenience) in terms of Miss X repeating her 3-guess experiment 2000 times, we find the likelihood that

she would get none right about 1560 times (i.e. 78% chance)
she would get one right about 400 times (i.e. 20% chance)
she would get two right about 36 times (i.e. 1.8% chance)
she would get three right about 1 time (i.e. .05% chance)

Note as a double-check that 1560 plus 400 plus 36 plus 1 equals (approx) 2000

(actually it equals 1997; the difference is due to rounding error which we could reduce if we used more decimal places).

So in summary, Miss X would get 2 or more out of 3 guesses right about 37 times out of 2000

which is nearly 2%, or slightly less than a chance of 1 in 50

HTH (hope that helps).

So did she actually do that?  If you say 'yes' I probably won't believe you.  Wishing good luck with the antibiotics.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 29 May 2015 01:52:04 PM
hello mr j,

very interesting.
the range of round 2 was 1 in 30, not 1 in 50.

lack of range in round 2 is and criticism. i think the ordered sequence complicates things enough that the high probability of guessing an individual number matters less.

her numbers were
2
28
12
there is also the messy number 15, messy enough we can discard it

i honestly do not care if you belief me or not. i do not care about looking good or being cool or adding value to myself. i want to explore the supernatural, i would like it if you were to help me. from my view i need to belief in you and the others somehow.
x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 29 May 2015 03:56:22 PM
"i honestly do not care if you belief me or not. i do not care about looking good or being cool or adding value to myself."

Very good but isn't that the wrong way round?  Me not believing you is a problem for me not a problem for you.

Anyway I've re-done the calcs for a range of (1...30).  The resulting likelihoods are as follows, expressed in terms of 2000 trials for easy comparison with previous post:

MsX would get none right about 1330 times (i.e. 66.5% chance)
she would get one right about 580 times (i.e. 29% chance)
she would get two right about 84 times (i.e. 4.2% chance)
she would get three right about 4 times (i.e. .2% chance)

and thus in summary she would get 2 or more out of 3 guesses right about 88 times out of 2000

which is nearly 4.5 percent, or about 1 chance in 23.  Not so outlandish as before but still in the uplands of incredibility when put in context with round 1.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 29 May 2015 05:23:47 PM
J, I was wondering about that... At first I thought you meant it was an existential crisis for X, that he might want to reconsider his position on the supernatural. But is this existential crisis actually about you, or the forum? Are you saying he might be making it up?

That is probably the most prudent way to think about it, but do you have any reason to doubt him? We're not basing any important decisions off this, just chatting about weird stuff. It makes no real difference whether what he or I says is true, and for that reason I feel it probably is true. That's what makes this forum stuff interesting to me, I don't have to worry about losing face or looking cool, I'm just a letter. Hopefully. And if you were wondering if we're colluding, I Elvis J. Presley Jr categorically state that we're not. Or are we? (No, but come on, what could we possibly gain from that?)

X, I really don't care and cannot believe that you would make something up just to annoy strangers on the internet. I'm not even really bothered about encryption and secrecy and such, this is a friendly conversation and whatever you say is good enough for me. I promise I won't jump off a bridge just because you said it's safe, and I expect the same good sense from you and every other member here.

I hope we continue this discussion as long as more than one person wants to. I still enjoy it because it's the only outlet I have for this kind of strangeness. (Cue world's tiniest violin playing just for me)

Hope Miss X feels better soon, and good weekend to all.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 30 May 2015 11:49:05 AM
hello g and j,

Very good but isn't that the wrong way round?

that is one way of looking at it. is it even and problem, at all. there is no rule or condition that says mr x is infallible, always belief everything mr x says, never question mr x. it is completely appropriate to question, doubt or not belief me.

if i said "i will accurately report the numbers, i will not modify the numbers, you can trust me on this",  that seems enough. the statement is true. if someone else said that to me, i doubt i would belief them. not due any terrible judgments of people, i just would casually not initiate trust.

perhaps the problem is you looking at something as being borderline incredible. when even though it happened, it is not borderline incredible to those involved. just some numbers being passed around in and casual game. belief in the supernatural seems the be the thing. it makes sense that i can say there is no need for you to belief in me as it is unnecessary, as that is true, yet i feel the need to belief in you or others for reasons of trust. what makes sense no longer makes sense.

there is nothing to gain from lying to and tiny assortment of anonymous letters, i am not selling anything and i dont require anyones attention to survive. i would like to say there is nothing to gain and nothing to lose as and random letter. however there is something to gain or something to lose. if i have to, i can and will explore the supernatural solo. i would prefer not to. i would prefer not to explore alone. some synchronous letters online seems better than solo. i will continue to explore with you mr g and any other member of forum4.

i also noticed i mistuped. the penny dreadful tupe was meant to be trailer #2, i was quite surprised i actually made and tupe mistake.

x

ps. biotics worked as expect. also novel she uses the holding pattern sometimes to pass time. also novel that the holding pattern, while being not supernatural and rather benign, has and history of producing strange and strong coincidences, as mentioned in the story i didnt mention in the serious sync thread. fun times.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 30 May 2015 03:06:56 PM
Quote
G: We're not basing any important decisions off this, just chatting about weird stuff.

yes, but remember what DJ said? something about the absence of more or less "important" decisions, and being ready to die for any of them?

this is the very basic core of SuperNaturalBelief imo.

weather decisions are death or life issues or just entertainment.
told someone yesterday that i avoid reality checks in orer to avoid confusion between dream and waking. (sometimes i'm very sure in dreams i'm awake - never occurred to me i could be dreaming while awake. or?_) anyway -
what did i want to say?
am i awake?
(yes)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 30 May 2015 08:48:08 PM
I would like to invite you all to imagine an alternative version of this thread, as follows:

X: "I have found a random number generator which genarates truly random numbers based on atmospheric noise.  www.random.org.  I've randomly generated one number, between 1 and 500.  Anyone is welcome to guess it."

G "I guess 372."

X "Correct."

What would you think?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 30 May 2015 09:43:35 PM
It does sound more impressive (or more damning if you prefer) when you put it like that.

Perhaps it would be best for you to assume that we colluded, it wouldn't be unreasonable. I'll continue to say that we didn't, but that shouldn't dissuade you.

I offer an alternative explanation: From my perspective, it appears as if more low probability events happen to me when I participate in this forum. I wonder if it is simply because we are discussing the supernatural, unwittingly triggering some hidden springs in a more fundamental layer of reality.

But it is far more likely that me and X concocted a cunning scheme to irritate people who don't want to talk to us. Again, I say we didn't, but let's assume we did. Where would you like to go from here?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 31 May 2015 08:55:57 PM
Thanks G.  I would be interested in anyone else's thoughts too.

Meanwhile, just to clarify, that number 500 was not simply plucked out of thin air.  It was based on a somewhat back-of-the-envelope analysis of round 1 along the same lines as I did for round 2.

Given 6 random numbers (2,30,30,31,37,45) and 7 guesses (2,12,12,40,37,45,14) what is the probability that 3 of the guesses would match?  The answer is (I think) 3.7 percent i.e. about 1 chance in 27.

So if round 1 achieved an unlikeliness of 1 in 27, and round 2 achieved an unlikeliness of 1 in 23, then the combination of rounds 1 and 2 achieved an unlikeliness of 1 in 621 (27 multiplied by 23) which I rounded down to 500.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 01 June 2015 02:16:02 PM
hmmm... ju4o - your description seems the way things should be. to me, at least.

yes, i did think a number and never posted it - what round was it? anyway right  when x said than dreaming is as legitimate way to pick a umber as any - closed my eyes' saw "the tunnel" and expected to see a number - instead i heared it (said?) 17.
then someone wrote somewhere no no no' the number is incorrect, so i tried again and it (?) said 15.
- 15?
_between 15 and 17 (meaning 15\16\17?
but 17 feels more serious.)

may be i'm naeve- sweat sumer child as x once put it - but why can't things go just as Ju4o described? if you can guess, you can guess!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 01 June 2015 05:02:39 PM
Hi Z that is interesting.  Can I ask a follow up question: what if instead of 500 I had said a million?  That is, if you would imagine an alternative version of this thread, as follows,

X: "I have found a random number generator which genarates truly random numbers based on atmospheric noise.  www.random.org.  I've randomly generated a number, between one and a million.  Anyone is welcome to guess it."

G "I guess three hundred and seventy two thousand six hundred and five."

X "Correct."

What would you think?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 01 June 2015 09:15:08 PM
hello,

no time today but interesting reading. just posting to say round 2 is active.

3 numbers. one image, for and clue - the image is simple, it is not something like and specific painting or and pop culture thing.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 03 June 2015 06:39:44 AM
That brings up some fascinating questions which are the subject of active research.

For example the notion of "zero-knowledge proof" (bold added)

Quote
In cryptography, a zero-knowledge proof or zero-knowledge protocol is a method by which one party (the prover) can prove to another party (the verifier) that a given statement is true, without conveying any information apart from the fact that the statement is indeed true.

If proving the statement requires knowledge of some secret information on the part of the prover, the definition implies that the verifier will not be able to prove the statement in turn to anyone else, since the verifier does not possess the secret information. Notice that the statement being proved must include the assertion that the prover has such knowledge (otherwise, the statement would not be proved in zero-knowledge, since at the end of the protocol the verifier would gain the additional information that the prover has knowledge of the required secret information). If the statement consists only of the fact that the prover possesses the secret information, it is a special case known as zero-knowledge proof of knowledge, and it nicely illustrates the essence of the notion of zero-knowledge proofs: proving that one has knowledge of certain information is trivial if one is allowed to simply reveal that information; the challenge is proving that one has such knowledge without revealing the secret information or anything else.

For zero-knowledge proofs of knowledge, the protocol must necessarily require interactive input from the verifier, usually in the form of a challenge or challenges such that the responses from the prover will convince the verifier if and only if the statement is true (i.e., if the prover does have the claimed knowledge). This is clearly the case, since otherwise the verifier could record the execution of the protocol and replay it to someone else: if this were accepted by the new party as proof that the replaying party knows the secret information, then the new party's acceptance is either justified – the replayer does know the secret information – which means that the protocol leaks knowledge and is not zero-knowledge, or it is spurious – i.e. leads to a party accepting someone's proof of knowledge who does not actually possess it.

The challenge for X, at this point, is "proving that one has knowledge of certain information is trivial if one is allowed to simply reveal that information; the challenge is proving that one has such knowledge without revealing the secret information or anything else".
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 03 June 2015 07:16:57 AM
For example, suppose X tries password-protecting the numbers.  He could post them in password-protected form, and later on reveal the password.

The problem would be, how to convince us that the password which he later reveals is the true password which unlocks the original numbers.

He could have several specially prepared passwords up his sleeve.

If he wants to persuade us that the numbers were 1,2,3 (for example) he would reveal password A, which unlocks the original password-protected file to produce 1,2,3.

If on the other hand he wants to persuade us that the numbers were 4,5,6, then he could reveal password B, which unlocks the same original password-protected file to produce 4,5,6.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 03 June 2015 02:12:36 PM
hello,

i guess i can see what you are saying. thanks for input on that. how can we be sure the password is not manipulated. there is also magicians tricks, mentalism and basic suggestion as possible means of manipulating the numbers.

round 2 has no pass or encrypt, just noted in and text file like round one. i had no distribution method nor did anyone seem to care. g had no encrypt need. the round is broken but still there.

round 3 needs to be rock solid. input from all. breaking systems is and good exercise.

in the alternate versions i wouldnt belief, but in the point of borderline incredible i get it. i would think something has happened. something weird. from my view the numbers were random and all i did was know them, so g must be the the source of the something. i appreciate your analysis of the numbers.

it appears as if more low probability events happen to me when I participate in this forum. I wonder if it is simply because we are discussing the supernatural, unwittingly triggering some hidden springs in a more fundamental layer of reality.

if, from the moment you wake to the moment you sleep, you were to flood your mind with information, information would start linking together. not due to any meaning, it just would. you would notice this is similar to that, one thing is like another, and image would form. it is logical that the more information you consume, the more possible links. maybe syncs are just that we are noticing the information interact with other information.

as it turns out, i have been having and existential crisis, and good one but i have it contained. there is and switch in the off position. if i could turn it to the on position, it would provide default belief in the supernatural. that switch is right next to the core of and wasteland of switches set to off. i am sure it is possible to change ones view.

x
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 03 June 2015 02:39:07 PM
J4, tell me if this satisfies the conditions.

There are approx. 1 million English words. The experiment is to see if you can guess a randomly selected word from a randomly selected book.

To encode the answer, I type the ISBN number of the book in a text editor or word processor, e.g.

9780140289206 (13 digits)

I complete the code by adding the page number (3 digits), line number (2 digits) and word number (2 digits).

Example: 97801402892060961001

(ISBN for Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, page 096, line 10, word 01)

Next, I take the word ("football"), and convert it to binary with an online converter, e.g. http://www.unit-conversion.info/texttools/convert-text-to-binary/

Result: 01100110 01101111 01101111 01110100 01100010 01100001 01101100 01101100

I paste it into the text editor mentioned, then remove all the spaces:

0110011001101111011011110111010001100010011000010110110001101100

Next, I connect the two numbers by adding "base 10" behind the book code, "base 2" behind the binary word code and "*" between them:

Quote
97801402892060961001 base 10 * 0110011001101111011011110111010001100010011000010110110001101100 base 2

I copy and paste the combination to Wolfram Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/

Wolfram Alpha multiplies the numbers and returns:

Quote
721895711186429677656686373548203609676

Next, I publish the number in our guessing game. If a person guesses the word correctly, it is easy to run the process in reverse. Simply divide the given number by the binary of the guessed word. If it is the correct word, the following will happen:

1. The result will be a 20 digit number
2. It will follow the pattern BBBBBBBBBBBBBPPPLLWW
3. If you paste the first 13 digits into google, it will show you a book
4. If you can get the book, or search it online, you will see the word on page PPP, in line LL, word number WW.

If the person has guessed the word incorrectly, the probability of finding that wrong word in a wrong book at that wrong place would surely be even smaller than guessing 1 out of a million words.

It may be hard to find that specific book, but at least it would be verifiable. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to write a script to automate the process, but I wouldn't know where to start.

Thoughts?

Edit: Hi X, agree with everything you said. Much info = many syncs
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 03 June 2015 08:42:07 PM
ISBNs can contain the letter X as well as the digits 0...9 but you can avoid this problem by simply not choosing a book with an X in its ISBN.  Your scheme is interesting and I suggest you give it a try.  As X is giving his rounds numbers you could give your rounds letters.  Round A.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 04 June 2015 06:31:20 AM
hello
x-congratulations for overcoming your existential crisis, whatever that was. so Resistance was not futile?

Quote
Ju4o: The challenge for X, at this point, is "proving that one has knowledge of certain information is trivial if one is allowed to simply reveal that information; the challenge is proving that one has such knowledge without revealing the secret information or anything else".
Quote
Hi Z that is interesting.  Can I ask a follow up question: what if instead of 500 I had said a million?  That is, if you would imagine an alternative version of this thread, as follows,

X: "I have found a random number generator which genarates truly random numbers based on atmospheric noise.  www.random.org.  I've randomly generated a number, between one and a million.  Anyone is welcome to guess it."

G "I guess three hundred and seventy two thousand six hundred and five."

X "Correct."

What would you think?
J ang G (and X) - are you playing "turkish poker?"

it's a game introduced in a Feuilleton by Efraim Kishon:
player 1 names a number - player 2 names a number - the one whose number is higher, wins.

numbers got higher, and higher, and higher - and Ephraim never won. he couldn't understand why... (because he was always second to announce his number, that's why.)
he is thinking a very good number, say - "million!"
"million and three!" says Arvinka.
"two millions and three!"
""two millions and three hundred and five!"
"three millions!"
three million and twelve!"
well - of course it's possible to "guess" whatever number, or word, or image, or whatever someone say\thinks\writes - telepathy, if such a thing exist, is just another way of reading\hearing\seeing, no?

imagine i say: "hundred!" and you hear me. and repeat correctly.

next i say "tow millions and thirty five!" and you hear me
next i say "Mona Lisa!" and - wow! you repeat correctly
next i say "a vortex!"
-and so on.

what's the big deal?
i'll tel you what:

if you want to WIN...
then you can't afford to be the first to reveal your number\image\intent\whatever.
Life is a Turkish Poker, and all are actors.

if you want to win, you have to encrypt what you know.
since the tamahtuphah is closed, this retarded game is enabled.

Quote
G:There are approx. 1 million English words. The experiment is to see if you can guess a randomly selected word from a randomly selected book.

To encode the answer, I type the ISBN number of the book in a text editor or word processor, e.g.

9780140289206 (13 digits)

I complete the code by adding the page number (3 digits), line number (2 digits) and word number (2 digits).

Example: 97801402892060961001

(ISBN for Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, page 096, line 10, word 01)

Next, I take the word ("football"), and convert it to binary with an online converter, e.g. http://www.unit-conversion.info/texttools/convert-text-to-binary/

Result: 01100110 01101111 01101111 01110100 01100010 01100001 01101100 01101100

I paste it into the text editor mentioned, then remove all the spaces:

0110011001101111011011110111010001100010011000010110110001101100

Next, I connect the two numbers by adding "base 10" behind the book code, "base 2" behind the binary word code and "*" between them:

Quote
97801402892060961001 base 10 * 0110011001101111011011110111010001100010011000010110110001101100 base 2

I copy and paste the combination to Wolfram Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/

Wolfram Alpha multiplies the numbers and returns:

Quote
721895711186429677656686373548203609676

Next, I publish the number in our guessing game. If a person guesses the word correctly, it is easy to run the process in reverse. Simply divide the given number by the binary of the guessed word. If it is the correct word, the following will happen:

1. The result will be a 20 digit number
2. It will follow the pattern BBBBBBBBBBBBBPPPLLWW
3. If you paste the first 13 digits into google, it will show you a book
4. If you can get the book, or search it online, you will see the word on page PPP, in line LL, word number WW.

If the person has guessed the word incorrectly, the probability of finding that wrong word in a wrong book at that wrong place would surely be even smaller than guessing 1 out of a million words.

It may be hard to find that specific book, but at least it would be verifiable. I'm sure it would be pretty easy to write a script to automate the process, but I wouldn't know where to start.
i'm too advanced to understand i guess...
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 04 June 2015 09:50:16 AM
Quote
talli-ho san (loved this nick, ju4o) yes, i did think a number and never posted it - what round was it? anyway right  when x said than dreaming is as legitimate way to pick a umber as any - closed my eyes' saw "the tunnel" and expected to see a number - instead i heared it (said?) 17.
then someone wrote somewhere no no no' the number is incorrect, so i tried again and it (?) said 15.
- 15?
_between 15 and 17 (meaning 15\16\17?
but 17 feels more serious.)
this is indeed interested, regarding 15 and 17:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_Willow_(Law_%26_Order:_Criminal_Intent) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weeping_Willow_(Law_%26_Order:_Criminal_Intent))
it anything connected to whatever?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 04 June 2015 07:36:54 PM
hello g j z,

first g, your system seems, i belief the right terminology is - very awesome.
i have had to read over than many times to understand, as and non expert i like it. encryption and distribution and verification in one set of numbers.
am i correct in thinking the system is scalable or can be modified for range ?

some thoughts -
the range of and million seems daunting, compared to 1-30/50. but it also makes sense. the possibilty of syncs just from wrong guesses and the possibility of super syncs. the possibilty of getting the word right and the book wrong.

regarding "football", the easiest version of the book i could find was
http://www.physixfan.com/wp-content/files/GEBen.pdf
96 10 1 is "the". do isbn change with different prints of the same book.

there is and flaw in round a. with g holding the word, who is going to guess. g is our prime guesser. making hundreds of thousands of guesses could take some time.

there was something in round one i forgot to say, so i didnt do it. something about repeating the numbers in my mind at intervals, like on the hour during the day. due to the telepathy, seemed logical that i had to think the thing. i did think the numbers casually but not on and schedule.

hypothetically, telepathy doesnt seems like something where you reach into and persons mind and take some information against their will. it is like talking, someone offers some information, the others persons hears it and replys.  so if you where going to hold and one in and million word, sending the signal or thinking the thought (or saying it outloud, or writing down on paper) seems like and good idea.

i have noticed and flaw with the passworded file, with and small range and the password being and small sequence, an computer could calculate all possible passwords and open up even the most heavily encrypted file. easily. so even the guessers could break the system and appear to be psychic.

z,
i havent overcome, but contained. my day started well today, when i woke up there was an cat sleeping on my couch. and neighborhood cat. i call him **aghur.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 05 June 2015 02:00:37 AM
well,

i have been wanting to do and consumption ramble for at least and few days now. need to do it while i remember.

constant consumption or the holding pattern or version 2, as and subtle system, is easily breakable and easily repairable. it broke pretty quickly for myself after talking about it with g. forced unavoidable introspection is part of version 1.
version 2 is and extract of version 1. i personally used version 1 of version 1 to turn off and switch, in such and way that i could never return near that switch.

it is and open source idea, i have poorly described version nothing. whatever anyone were to think or do with that information would be for them - their version 1. and it would belong to that person. i cannot imagine what it would be like to have and version 1, based on version 2, and not knowing the first version. or version -1, or -2.

while the holding pattern or version 2 waits for nothing, for myself i have noticed version 1 holds something.
as and example of difference - version 2 goes on forever. it is limited only by the amount of time you have left alive. the story always ends the same, death. like and smooth sheet of metal it is consistent. its like and concept has certain core qualitys, and no matter how you shape it, those qualitys can be detected,
version 1 is more like and blade. sharp and to the point. it takes place over and period of time and reaches and crescendo. it has purpose and requires some discipline and it is unpleasant. it requires an assistant.

there is good discpline that you want, such as eating well and looking after yourself, and there is discipline that while being actual discipline, you dont want. such as the ability to drive and nail through your big toe without flinching, letting it heal, then doing it again. (no toes were hurt in the making of this ramble)

if and technique were and sentance, version 2 is one word. the sentance however i made for myself to solve my own problem. (and of course cause myself dozens of problems). this is and story where i aim to tell the truth, but do not aim to tell the full story.

it is possible to break version 1, but also possible to spread it out, slow it down, and observe it. lots to extract.

with version 2 sometimes on the fritz, i have been snooping around the very start of the holding pattern, before it had an name. looking for concepts to extract, incase i could figure out the side effect of super sync without having to actual return to the version 1 version 1. which i cannot do. as that is the design. and for and cobbled together poorly made badly thought out desperate system, version 1 version 1 was pretty dam effective. if and good shaman is walter white, version 1 was some crappy shake and bake garage job. but still.

this morning miss x berated me for exactly getting too close to "it", she called me out for being in the zone and getting to close. that i can never get that close again. "it will have consequences and you know it will" sort o thing, it was like she was reading my mind. she didnt know i was trying to sneak and peek of the default supernatural switch, yet called me out on all the things i am currently calling myself out on internally. soon after on and different topic she was following me around the house with her laptop after reading some news article, and human voice literally saying the words "dont give up on encryption !" (she knew i had been looking for encryption software).

due to the time requirement of version 1 there were limits on how often the cycle could repeat. other times i tried to use version 1 resulted in things such as talking with j outside of castanet. and eventually forum4. yadda yadda, now.

the thing is, i am not sure i can use the holding pattern to solve the problem of the holding pattern. version 1 is like and fast car with no seats. it will get you to your destination, but you wont sit back and enjoy it. easy to break. thinking i need and new system, something more careful, where flicking one switch doesnt flick an thousand.

disclamer, if have failed to in anyway communicate my view and everything i have said appears as gibberish, then that is the way it is.

i dispassionately and without effort chose some numbers for round 2, cant remember when, i think around the 1st of the month. using binary as and spoiler code, here is the sequence. before you choose to look note that the word that describes the image is in this code.
00110010 00110111 00101101 00110010 00110000 00101101 00110001 00110011
00101101 01110010 01101001 01110110 01100101 01110010

i have some business to attend to, will be away for and few days.

x

an existential crisis is an interesting thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXPmYpUsQgk  (spoiler warning for the movie "kingsman")
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 07 June 2015 04:37:42 PM
Quote
I'm sure it would be pretty easy to write a script to automate the process

Is that why round A hasn't started yet?

Heaven knows how many people are lining up champing at the bit ready to guess.

It doesn't need a script, you could just do it manually at least to begin with like in the example.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 07 June 2015 06:48:51 PM
Oh, sorry, I'll get to it soon. Hopefully tomorrow. In the mean time if you have anything to add to the process it would be welcome.

Mr X, this is just an interim reply, but to answer the first question: Yes, I think the range can be adapted. It can be limited to a specific list of words, or limited to a specific book if need be. "The Cat in the Hat" only uses 236 words, for instance. The range can also be expanded by including other languages.

There are a few other variables that should be nailed down, like do you treat headings as a line? I think yes, but I'm not sure if there are existing conventions about this. Again, any suggestions are welcome.

Good evening to all.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 08 June 2015 02:12:44 PM
OK, Round A: Mostly a practice round.

I shall post 2 numbers here, for the first I'll give you the word to practice the procedure, the second will be an easy word to guess.

First number: (Copy the following number into a text editor, including the base and / operator)

43879027289515375637879631197466 base 10 /

Open a tab with the text to binary converter: http://www.unit-conversion.info/texttools/convert-text-to-binary/

The word here is "human". Type it into the text field, do not press Enter.

Select and copy the binary output. Paste it after the number and / operator, delete all the spaces between the binary numbers and add " base 2" at the end.

Select and copy the resulting text. Open a tab for Wolfram Alpha: http://www.wolframalpha.com/

Paste the line into the field in Wolfram Alpha and press Enter or click =

Look for the result in decimal form. If you hover the mouse pointer over it, it will reveal an option labeled "A" which will make the text copyable. Copy and paste it into your text editor.

Select the first 13 digits and paste it into Google. This should show you the book. If you search by title and add "google books" to the search term, you will find a preview.

The last seven digits give you the page number, line number and word number (PPPLLWW).

***

Okay, now for the actual experiment. I have chosen a simple, 3 letter word to start us off. I have avoided pages with complications such as titles and diagrams and have found a previewable version in google books.

Have fun!

669065629724685784603345396

or, use the following template:

Quote
669065629724685784603345396 base 10 / <insert binary number here and remove spaces> base 2
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 08 June 2015 05:26:12 PM
Maybe that would be one letter too many.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 08 June 2015 05:47:08 PM
That would indeed  ;D
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 09 June 2015 08:58:32 PM
According to http://www.freescrabbledictionary.com/sowpods/ (http://www.freescrabbledictionary.com/sowpods/) there are 124 two-letter words in scrabble and 1311 three-letter words.

One can just about imagine someone going through the two-letter word list until they get a match.  It would be an unusual way of having fun but not impossible.

But 1311 three-letter words feels like too many.

However, maybe all is not lost.

What if we start by thinking of what book Mr G is likely to choose from.  His first example was Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid.  This makes it quite likely that (assuming he doesn't want to use the same book twice running) his next choice will be from the writings of Douglas Adams.  Let us look at the three-letter words which occur in the Dirk Gently books.

To make things a bit easier, let us guess that Mr G is kindly not going to have chosen a word at the beginning of a sentence with a capital letter, it would feel not random enough.

Here is a list of the remaining words he might have chosen from (ignoring tiresome details like apostrophes and hyphens):

Quote
act add ads age ago aid aim air all alt and ane any are arm art ash ask ate awe axe bad bag bal bar bat bed beg bet bid big bin bit bob bow box boy bra bun bus but buy cab caf can cap car cat cnd cod cow coy cry cup cut day den dep dew did die dig dim din dog don dow dry due dug ear eat ebb eek eel eff egg end eye fag far fat fed fee few fey fig fit fix flu fly for fun fur gag gap gas gel get gin god got gun guy gym had hag ham has hat hay her hid him hip his hit hob hop hot how hug hum ice icy ill ion its ivy jam jar jaw jet job joy jug key kid kir lap law lay led leg let lid lie lip lit lot low lug mad man map maw max may med men met mix mle mor mud mug nag new nod non nor not now nut oaf oak obf odd off oil old one onx our out owe own pad pat pay pen per pie pig pit pop pot pub put ran rap rat red rev rid rim rip rly rod rom rot row rub rug rum run sad sat saw say sea see set sex she sip sir sit six sky sly sob son sue sum sun tan tap tea ted ten the tie tin tip ton too top tow toy try tug tum two urn use van vat via vim wad wan war was wax way web wet who why win wit won wry yes yet yew you zip

Well this is not so bad, we are down from 1311 words to 279 words.  By the way, some of these words look a bit odd: 'dep' for example;  however, referring back to the source, it turns out that the word does indeed occur:

Quote
I'm afraid I've got to work. Nicola's sick and I'm going to have to dep for her at the Wigmore on Friday week.

But it still feels like too many words.  Maybe if we sort them into decreasing order of frequency of how many times they occur in the books, things will get easier:

Quote
7364 the
4102 and
2683 was
1447 his
1345 you
975 for
761 him
714 but
686 her
634 she
606 not
560 all
523 out
443 one
289 its
269 way
257 see
256 who
234 are
227 off
226 did
221 any
216 now
193 get
178 man
155 can
152 two
147 got
144 old
139 few
133 say
131 own
131 how
125 put
113 car
108 air
102 sat
91 why
91 too
86 has
86 day
85 let
76 new
73 yes
71 bit
63 bed
60 odd
59 end
58 lot
56 lay
53 our
53 may
52 top
47 try
47 set
46 far
45 sky
44 saw
44 big
41 yet
40 hat
37 god
34 ran
33 eye
33 arm
32 led
31 red
31 low
31 box
29 tap
29 boy
28 sit
27 use
27 ago
26 run
26 hit
25 sir
25 sea
25 pay
21 pot
21 job
21 cat
20 van
20 ten
20 mud
18 hot
18 dim
17 fit
16 sun
15 men
15 bag
14 tea
13 lit
13 fat
13 cut
13 cup
12 pop
12 met
12 bin
12 bar
11 wet
11 per
10 tie
10 son
10 oak
10 fed
10 bow
9 oil
9 nod
9 leg
9 key
9 age
8 six
8 guy
8 fly
8 bet
7 war
7 tin
7 rid
7 rap
7 pen
7 map
7 ear
7 don
7 cry
7 caf
7 beg
7 act
6 tip
6 pub
6 lie
6 ill
6 eat
6 dog
5 via
5 owe
5 nor
5 lip
5 jet
5 gas
5 fun
5 due
5 art
4 pig
4 pie
4 joy
4 fag
4 cab
4 awe
3 win
3 tug
3 sum
3 sip
3 row
3 lid
3 law
3 kid
3 jam
3 ice
3 hum
3 hug
3 gap
3 fur
3 fix
2 yew
2 won
2 web
2 wax
2 wan
2 vim
2 toy
2 sue
2 rip
2 rim
2 pit
2 pat
2 non
2 mix
2 max
2 lug
2 jaw
2 icy
2 hid
2 hay
2 gin
2 gag
2 fig
2 ebb
2 dig
2 die
2 cap
2 bob
2 bid
2 ate
2 aim
2 aid
1 zip
1 wry
1 wit
1 vat
1 urn
1 tum
1 tow
1 ton
1 ted
1 tan
1 sob
1 sly
1 sex
1 rum
1 rug
1 rub
1 rot
1 rom
1 rod
1 rly
1 rev
1 rat
1 onx
1 obf
1 oaf
1 nut
1 nag
1 mug
1 mor
1 mle
1 med
1 maw
1 lap
1 kir
1 jug
1 jar
1 ivy
1 ion
1 hop
1 hob
1 hip
1 ham
1 hag
1 gym
1 gun
1 gel
1 flu
1 fey
1 fee
1 egg
1 eff
1 eel
1 eek
1 dug
1 dry
1 dow
1 din
1 dew
1 dep
1 den
1 coy
1 cow
1 cod
1 cnd
1 bus
1 bun
1 bra
1 bat
1 bal
1 axe
1 ash
1 ane
1 alt

Well this is looking much more hopeful I think, and we can immediately rule out the most common words like 'the' and 'and'.

I mean, Mr G would be left feeling pretty foolish if he had chosen 'the', and someone guessed 'the' on their first try.

In fact, the same thing is true of the next several words on the list.

Actually one has to go quite far down the list before the words start getting interesting.  But I still can't imagine G choosing a word like "why, too, has, day".

Let us go on a bit further ... "our may ask top try" ... still pretty boring ... "big yet hat god" ... wait, I think we might have gone too far.  The chances of Mr G choosing 'god' are basically nil.

But what about that word sitting right in front of 'god'.  It has a nice smell to it and a definite Castanedan ring, which is more than can be said for any of the other words we've had so far.  Also, it is the name of our sister forum.

I think this should be our first choice.  Let us plug it in to Mr G's algorithm and see what happens.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 10 June 2015 10:47:51 AM
The 4 steps are, first:
http://www.unit-conversion.info/texttools/convert-text-to-binary/ (http://www.unit-conversion.info/texttools/convert-text-to-binary/)

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/hat1.jpg)

Step 2 is, paste this result into wolfram alpha:
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=669065629724685784603345396+base+10+%2F+011010000110000101110100+base+2 (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=669065629724685784603345396+base+10+%2F+011010000110000101110100+base+2)

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/hat2.jpg)

The first 13 digits of this result are supposed to be an ISBN and step 3 is to plug them into Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/s/url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=9780671746728 (http://www.amazon.com/s/url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=9780671746728)

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/hat3.jpg)

Step 4, click on this result and look inside using the other digits of our result from wolfram which give the page number (47) line number (17) and word number (13):

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/hat4.jpg)

It is enough to make one feel like Sherlock Holmes.

So I think Round A has been a smashing success.  Except, perhaps a trifle easy.  As we have seen, purely rational methods can lead us unerringly to the correct result so it is not a very good test of the supernatural.

For Round B if you would choose an unlikely book we would never even have dreamed you might have on your shelves, then there would be not only the pleasure of guessing but also of discovering, if successful, what this unlikely book is.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 10 June 2015 01:34:45 PM
That's one way of doing it... alternatively you could have followed my trail of sandwiches...

"The Cat in the Hat" --> "Cat's Cradle" --> "hat"

Also, if you missed j4's sublime pun... "that" would be one letter too many.

Thanks for the Amazon tip, Mr J.

Well, that does it for the practice round, I'll be sure to offer more of a challenge next time. However, as you rightly surmised, I have exhausted the number of books I have actually read. I may have to resort to lists like "The top 100" this or the other.

Good day  ;)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 11 June 2015 07:34:47 AM
In fact, never mind. The system is trivially easy to crack without including another step which would make it even less user friendly.

I give up. Cheers.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 11 June 2015 05:20:59 PM
This is very interesting.  I think Mr G is beginning to small a rat.

Perhaps he does not believe my statement that it is "quite likely" that, given his first choice was a book by Douglas Hofstadter, his second choice would be a book by Douglas Adams.  In fact, I suspect he thinks that it would be a monstrously outrageous assumption.  And thoroughly unfair.

Well, maybe.

So perhaps he suspects that I actually used another method to solve Round A, and only pretended to be using the ludicrous method which I described.

Well, again, maybe.

The question is, what might this other (and possibly even more Sherlock-Holmesian) method have been.

One possibility would be to divide every word in the English language into Mr G's posted number, and see how many words divide cleanly with no remainder.  Hopefully only one or two words would do this, and then we have immediately narrowed the space of possibilities down to one or two words.

But assuming we do not resort to writing a computer program, this is impractical.

Is there is a way of solving Round A using only pencil-and-paper methods, plus clicking on websites like the ones Mr G has provided links for, but not using a calculator, and not even doing any mental arithmetic in our heads?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 11 June 2015 06:36:25 PM
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee420/gmbgmb/football_zpsfuutnfpg.jpg)

An alternative might be to declare the first 4 digits of the ISBN.

Another EDIT: No scratch that. ISBNs are too predictable.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 12 June 2015 02:42:16 PM
Very nice.  With the interesting corollary that multiplying two numbers together may not be a very good way of hiding information about them.  In fact, the apparently simpler operationg of adding them together can sometimes be better.

If we start with the numbers 2 and 9, for example, and we multiply them together and publish the result '18', then everyone can immediately work out that the original numbers must have been either 2 and 9, or 3 and 6.

But if we add them together and publish the result '11', then the original numbers could have been 1 and 10, or 2 and 9, or 3 and 8, or 4 and 7, or 5 and 6, which is a much wider field of possibilities.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 13 June 2015 12:56:18 AM
hello g and j,

letter rounds are extremely interesting. i do not understand the hoot.

i read the round in the past day or so, i had been wondering if the g method could be solved with and calculation. i am impressed and enjoyed reading it.

adding other languages is also something i have been thinking about. hypothetically in an true telepathy test, a word you do not know seems more likely to stand out compared to the million english words. what if the word was in xhosa. how do we verify.

there are currently no plans for round three of the numbers.

i think j should try informally crafting and system. mr j bond, what would you consider to be and good test of the supernatural ?

with the isbn method i thought i would be crafty, if  the code can be broken and the word detected, i would choose and book and do the calculations and post the number and see if it could be easily detected.
the book is next to me as i type. the isbn is not 13 numbers. 10 numbers. there is and isbn13 number on amazon with the isbn10 number, both are different from the isbn10 numbers on the spine of the book. i was about to run some numbers and pick an word for testing and it got complicated.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 13 June 2015 05:47:54 PM
hallol x-san

?הַגְּדוּשָׁה רָחֲפְתְךָ בִּצְלוֹפַחִים
ּּּּּּּּ?וּזְאֵבִים בַּל יֵרָאוּ בַּה

?וּמַהּ צֶבַע כּוֹבַעוֹ הַמְּשֻׁלַשׁ שַׁל הֶחַתּוּל

ָ,וְאַן פַּּנֵיה
?צִפּוֹרָה נֶחְמֶדַת

...אִם לֹא מֵאַרְצוׁת הַקֹר הָהֵן
?לֹא

...חֲבָל
:'(עָל תַּפּוּחַ שֶׁנַּפַל
...מֶרֹאשׁ הָעֶץ
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 14 June 2015 11:03:06 AM
"i do not understand the hoot."

Why is it a hoot?  Good question.

Well one reason it is a hoot is because it just is.  The other reason is that it might be just about the most paranormal thing which has happened in Round A.

For Mr G's method to work as it should, both the ISBN (concatenated with line-number etc) and the secret word should ideally be primes, in order to make the product a semiprime:

Quote
Among the b-bit numbers, the most difficult to factor in practice using existing algorithms are those that are products of two primes of similar size.

(~wiki)

and also, of course, the procedure needs to be suitably adjusted in order to make all the numbers much longer; a semiprime of around 250 digits is probably long enough to defeat current technology, but the goalposts move every year.

Quote
On December 12, 2009, a team including researchers from the CWI, the EPFL, INRIA and NTT in addition to the authors of the previous record factored RSA-768, a 232-digit semiprime. They used the equivalent of almost 2000 years of computing on a single core 2.2 GHz AMD Opteron.

So by making at least one of the numbers prime (even though it does not have nearly enough digits to be viable) the powers that guided Mr G's design for Round A had their little hoot.

The unlikeliness of a 20-digit number starting with '978' being prime is about 1 in 46, according to the prime number theorem, which says that the chance of n being prime is, for large n, approx 1 in ln n, where 'ln' means natural logarithm:

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/ln978.jpg)

If the unlikeliness had been less than 1 in 20, it would have been not worthy of note; if it had been more than 1 in 50, one would have had to wonder if Mr G had planned it that way.

Between 1 in 20 and 1 in 50 is the sweet spot.

For comparison, recall that Round 1 achieved an unlikeliness of about 1 in 27, and Round 2 about 1 in 23, both sweet.

P.S. Z could you translate please?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 15 June 2015 01:20:02 PM
Thanks Mr J. Welcome back X, unfortunately the letter rounds were a bust, as you saw.

Before I say anything further, could you please explain in detail what on earth made you choose Xhosa as the language in your example?

Ms Z, have you invented a new code? Should we try and guess the meaning?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 15 June 2015 07:56:01 PM
hello,

j, i cant say i understand 100% but thanks for the explanation. after the explainer, any not understanding is my problem.
after reading it over and over, it is very curious. this is why exploring together is good, other human brains to process information and think thoughts you would never think without their input.

1-20 makes sense. anything less than would just be easy chance. if it was pick and number any number, 1-21, one guess only. guess one is correct. in the sweet spot but still within the realm of chance.

50+ is what i am not sure about. it is based on distrusts and the ideas of people lying and manipulation the outcome, collusion and deceit. if we generated and 1 in 1000 result, should we just ignore it because it is not sweet and we are all scoundrels. there has to be and system that remove our human imperfections.
send and snail mail letter, guessing round happens during transit, numbers revealed by verifier on arrival ? could be still be collusion.

the upper end of the sweet spot is very interesting.

g,

i apologize, i have frantically googled and searched my browser history for the word that sparked the thought of xhosa. i cant find it or remember it. there were are bunch of words, spanish, scottish, german, one xhosa that i was googling as they were appearing not so much in my mind but in my mental overflow. for instance if your mind were full, and there were other thoughts trying to get in, overflow.

i thought it meant something like "council" when i looked it up but i cant remember. it was not something worth noting down at the time but it left and impression enough to use xhosa as the example. google keeps leading back to bantu and ubuntu, i dont think that was it. (does anyone know of and global dictionary, that has all words on the one website ?)

?z, your post looks upside down or backwards. what is the translation

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 15 June 2015 08:50:58 PM
Was it Indaba?

Well, I think this will blow the sweet spot clear out of the water. After J4 said I should choose a more "unlikely" book, I rummaged through a cupboard and picked this:

http://www.amazon.com/Clicking-Xhosa-Phrasebook-English-Edition/dp/0864863772

Soon after I realised what the problem was and decided to leave it.

Of course, you could choose not to believe it, but that doesn't solve my problem.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 15 June 2015 09:43:54 PM
welcome back, Mr X the strange. buisness were successful?
Quote
Ju4o: P.S. Z could you translate please?
oh damm. i wrote this nonsense feeling so light- hearted, for i was NOT going to translate it...
it's harsh stuff to translate;  paraphrasing poems well-known over here.
here's a tupe:
and the other's - children's song:
(i copy them links though my lap-topo refuses recently to play any tupes.)
poem 1 is well-known as - everybody learned it in school (in my days; i don't know what they teach this days - maybe David Avidan? {a revolutionary modernist, it's like suggesting -  Timothy Liry?}

anyway -
it's paraphrasing 1) Bialick's, "the national poet"s, first poem,
אל הציפור - to the bird (awful translation! i would make it, less literal' ore poetical, "halol, bird!"
you won't believe - but when i was kid, it was not that far from spoken language, (as well as the bible. when we learned Genesis at 1st grade, i was surprized to find i understood each word on reading. later i lost this talent. but later yet i discovered my strange "supernatural" talent to receive any text in Aghurah language along with the translation - but no. it's not just a personal thing. the spoken language have changed so badly ever since - and for the worst. at times it seems to me  the evil guys did it deliberately to irritate me. )
(well - the idea of affecting a language deliberately is not a a joke. not always. we, the team of Future Changers (http://spiritualitydiscussiongroup.yuku.com/topic/876/Future-Changing-the-manual (http://spiritualitydiscussiongroup.yuku.com/topic/876/Future-Changing-the-manual)) [a major supernatural technique, besides  :) ) from Taghuwar [= the native name of "Atlantis"]
[in past life, that is) put lot of effort into the future development of Hebrew -her nearest (gemamtically at least) "doughter language" of Aghurah

...i stop here to go to sleep - already broke my decision to avoid going deep into the night again.
will comtinue hopefully tomorrow.
nana tov.
Ms Z, have you invented a new code? Should we try and guess the meaning? (http://Ms Z, have you invented a new code? Should we try and guess the meaning?)
G - a new code? not that i'm aware of... but... you can geuss anyway... maybe you can save me that weird translasion job after all...
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 16 June 2015 01:36:44 PM
ok, me continue

in a coffee-shop again - the flat i rent still have to have kitchen basin and so on implemented, and the Niagara pours her water too slowly, so that which is to be Flash-Gordoned is sticking, and the shower cubicle letting water pour all over the floor,  fixed higher than the rooms' floors, thus water pours far...
so i let my land-lord work - he does it himself - 5 days late, but better then never-mind - and took my dog to go to the single coffee-shop in my new weird weird town, near the train-station, that was basically build by the Ottoman Turks. :o

[url]X: ?z, your post looks upside down or backwards. what is the translation  ::)  )
it's HEBREW X - stranger then strangeland,  written from left to right.
[sigh...] seems the 3 of you want a translation...
so i'll have to work on it, or be IMPOLITE.

Quote
Mr G:
Ms Z, have you invented a new code? Should we try and guess the meaning?
well... this gives me an idea.

actually she (Aghurah) is one of [a finite number? if i understand correctly, yes] of "real languages", which are the programming languages by which the universes are programmed; each defined by her own  set of definitions ["exioms] ["phisycal lows"].

the catch is - ever since the Tamahtufah been closed, no one can speak (or telepath) it - since she is telepathic language.
that is to say: parts of the language are telepathic - spoken by thought/mind and not by the mouth.
(originally it could be spoken either by thought only or by mouth+thought; but only humans and Carth^akhashim - a certain dog-like carnivour mammal which do not exist here anymore - could speak it by mouth; on earth, that is.

so -
is it good enough for you 3 (unless tosk decides to shaw up with and opinion too) if  i translate it into Aghurah?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 17 June 2015 08:57:34 AM
Was it Indaba?

yes that was the word. i can say that with certainty, easy to repeat/verify my thought process by googling "indaba word", this was the page that left the word "council" in my mind,
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/indaba

i actually felt irrationally bad for not being able to provide you with the  xhosa sparking word, i spent time (30-60 minutes) trying to recreate/remember the word and felt i had failed. then you gave me the word again. and i thought "what the fuck".

is indaba an zulu word or xhosa or and common word ?

for disclosure, i dont like overflow, it is like an undesirable side effect, not worth an version/extract. i know how to recreate the conditions for overflow in my mind, but it is not pleasant, to the extreme.

g, if you are not fucking with me, and this xhosa book business is for real, my response is - we have stumbled upon some weirdness. i dont know what to think about that.

do you have and digital camera or phone to take and photo of the book. and upload it to and generic image host like imgur then post the image here. for my own curiosity.

from my view the word weirdness is just syncs echoing from the holding versions as i retreated back to version 2. nothing new but still amusing and noticeable.

your view however, what is that. i saw the post containing indaba within hours of you posting it. my first reaction was "yes, correct", followed by "this is fucking weird...what the fuck". then once i had time to over think it "if g is messing with me it would be funny, but if he isnt, what the fuck". while i still dont agree with the upper limit being 1-50, i do understand wanting to keep things within reasonable limits.

after hearing this song 13 times in the past few days, i like it,

weirdness

i like this tupe

x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 17 June 2015 01:49:37 PM
(http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee420/gmbgmb/xhosa_zpspiszya3v.jpg)

Sorry, it's a bit dirty. I must have spilled something on it but I can't remember what.

Yes, indaba means the same thing in Zulu and Xhosa. Where did you come across it?

What do mean by overflow?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 18 June 2015 08:58:08 PM

That is pretty wonderful.

I think what is most impressive is the way in which Mr Paranormal managed to recruit Mr G's and Mr X's minds in such a way as to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, and make Round B a rip-roaring success even though Mr G got cold feet shortly after choosing the book.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 19 June 2015 12:25:16 AM
hello g,

firstly, im amused at how my mind fairly quickly got defensive over this sync. i went from thinking it was good sync, to wait a minute what if yadda yadda, and back again.

i didnt notice the spots on the book until you mentioned it. i was more focused on the bright color of the picture and the background. it looks like my desk.

i dont have and good explainer for indaba.
i said it out loud (inda-ba) and googled it. i did so because i was actually annoyed at the words repeating involuntarily and thought if i knew what they meant, if they were anything more than gibberish, that might break it. desperate but appropriate attempt at managing the overflow. this must sound very weird, but i am used to it.

and good way of explaining overflow would be and combination of perceptual tourettes and autism "stimming". i have neither of those conditions but conceptually that is not and bad description.
when the mind is at is limits. overflow is the sound of the mind breaking, and repairing. from my view it is and side effect of the less than desirable methods in version1v1, such as using easily gathered tangible resources such as stress and fear, combined to generate artificial intangible anxiety to drive introspection.
(do not do that, seriously) it is only temporary. mostly.

wiki description of the word is also good.

arithmetic overflow, a condition that occurs when a calculation produces a result that is greater than what a given register can store or represent

buffer overflow, a situation whereby the incoming data size exceeds that which can be accommodated by a buffer.

ps.
funnily, just as i was thinking i should check into forum4. i was walking through and dark room, as i turned on the light to the ensuite, my assistant (i have asked if she wanted and letter, she asked if she can be and number, then made no choice), lets call her miss -, sat upright and started speaking gibberish. "do you want yaddayadda.....do you want a card...do you want a card of water" when i realized she didnt even know she was awake, i asked if she needs some water, and she asked if i need a torch. this just and stupid story, but i felt like telling it.

x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 19 June 2015 01:41:22 PM
Gentlemen and lady, this is a lot to process, and I am unable to respond properly now.

I hope you have a good weekend, and I'll talk to you soon.

Cheers!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 19 June 2015 11:33:51 PM
(http://[/img[img])]Ju4o -
who is  Mr Paranormal?
X san -

Quote
i was actually annoyed at the words repeating involuntarily and thought if i knew what they meant, if they were anything more than gibberish, that might break it. desperate but appropriate attempt at managing the overflow. this must sound very weird, but i am used to it.
how elegant!
desperate but appropriate...
in "stranger in a strange land", by Robert Hyineline:
a guy who was left on mars as a baby returns extremely advanced. to help humans ascend he teaches them super- advanced marsian language, which by  merely anderstanding its conscepts one ascends, so to speak. naturally he bcomes the new Massia, and crusifiction is on schedule...

when cups comming to errest him, he preaches. they shoot his ear off, he preaches on. his fans cheering: "you have style, michael! elegant as usual!"
well - i am no match for such elegance. reading your ramble, i'm full of rage
rage.

some verses in the real super language:

ps - X-strange, feel free to ping me back.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 20 June 2015 03:25:50 PM
"who is Mr Paranormal?"

Hello Ms Z.  Conceptually, Mr Paranormal is an explanatory anthropomorphism.  The first question I would like to consider is, whether an explanation is called for.

When Mr G announced the rules for Round A, I envisaged we might have some fun.  For the purposes of this post I would like to present an imagined sequence of events.  Let us imagine that Mr G would have reached across from his desk to the nearest bookshelf and taken out the first book which came to hand.  For example,

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/niyogi1.jpg)

The ISBN is 9781461374930.

Let us then imagine that he would have opened this book at random and selected the first word upon which his eye lit:

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/niyogi3.jpg)

The word is 'parameterization' on page 19, line 8, word 3.

So, in this example, the two numbers which he would have multiplied together are 97814613749300190803 and 0111000001100001011100100110000101101101011001010111010001100101
0111001001101001011110100110000101110100011010010110111101101110 (base 2), which gives 14611498900249997356682144316044411105508199092393145435306.

So (remember, this is an imagined sequence of events) he would then have posted in the forum, saying that the number for Round A is 14611498900249997356682144316044411105508199092393145435306.

I would then have read Mr G's post, and pasted his number into wolfram alpha:

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/parametrization1.jpg)

From the results of that I would choose the number beginning with '978' (hopefully there will be only one, as there is in this case) and paste it back into wolfram alpha, dividing it into the original number and requesting the result in base 16:

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/parametrization2.jpg)

The result is 706172616d65746572697a6174696f6e, which I would finally paste into the conversion utility and request conversion from hex to text:

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/parametrization3.jpg)

which gives the result 'parameterization'.

I would then hurry back to the forum, and the dialogue could have gone something like this:

Quote
Mr G: OK folks, ready get set go.  For Round A the number is 14611498900249997356682144316044411105508199092393145435306

J4: Interesting.  I guess 'parameterization'.

Mr G: Correct.

Well, as you all know, it didn't exactly happen like that.  What went wrong is that Mr G, for Round A, not only chose a 3-letter word, but he went so far as to tell us in advance that it was a simple 3-letter word.  I immediately felt that to correctly guess the word 'hat', given that we had been told in advance that the word was only 3 letters, would be so darned unimpressive that I couldn't bring myself to do it.  Therefore I had to choose another tack, as we have seen.

But my question now is this:  what if Round A had gone like I imagined it could?  What would people think?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Merlin on 20 June 2015 08:04:16 PM
Supernatural
1. (of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.  "a supernatural being"

noun: supernatural; plural noun: supernaturals
1. manifestations or events considered to be of supernatural origin, such as ghosts.
"a frightening manifestation of the supernatural"

So demons, voices, apparition, pandemonium ...

But you guys seem to be defining winning the lottery as a supernatural event!
ffs!

As you were.

A tupe:
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 20 June 2015 09:30:18 PM
Hello Merlin.  Your perspective is interesting as ever.  While the title of this thread does refer to the supernatural, the first question asked in the opening post is,

"what is the difference between supernatural and paranormal ?"

In my opinion there is indeed a difference between those two things, and my contribution to the thread is, at present, and hopefully, an exploration of some aspects of the paranormal.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 21 June 2015 01:44:09 AM
hello everyone,

i just popped in to post an tupe, in the spirit of g hoping everyone and good weekend.

i dont expect anyone to belief me but my next question to j was to ask about the difference between the paranormal and supernatural.
in passing, i was chuffed to see merlin posting and more chuffed to see what he posted. looking up the basic definitions of those words had been on my mind regarding the question for j.

wanting to ask j about paranormal/supernatural definitions was not and passing thought. i was thinking about it quite a lot a few hours before popping in. (sparked by mr paranormal being mentioned)

have a good weekend everyone. i hope everyone is happy this sunday.

x.

ps, z,i will get back to you upstairs during the week.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 21 June 2015 06:49:50 AM
I think the supernatural is more of a spiritual thing though in its cruder manifestations it does also include the kinds of pandemony things which Merlin mentioned.

Here is a quote which I like about the supernatural (from Thomas Buckley, Standing Ground: Yurok Indian Spirituality, 1850-1990):

Quote
An elder who spoke to me at length in the 1970s had an immediately transformative experience.  Going into a trance in a "prayer seat" in the high mountains, he saw, as though through a tunnel, a small hole of light opening into a meadow (locally, a "prairie") in the sky.  A spiritual being took him up to this world above.  He saw people there, "all in the prime of life - about thirty-five years".  He could not talk with them or eat with them, lest he lose control and be unable to get back to earth.  He knew this to be the "beauty world", where the spirits of trained people go at death, waiting, he told me, for the time when they would come back to earth in new forms.  He was guided back to the seat by one of the spirit beings, and when he returned to his body in the prayer seat he knew what "beauty" truly was, and "walked in beauty".

This man said an interesting thing.  The spirits that he saw were not, he asserted, really there - their forms were simply the best his imagination could provide, given that "the spiritual is completely different from the material", and thus unimaginable.

There are two ways of reading that passage.  Well, there are obviously more than two ways, but I'm going to point out two ways in particular.

One way would focus on the elder "admitting", in the second paragraph, that the spirits are "not really there", and that therefore the experience was "only in imagination".

The other way would see this passage as an expression of the idea that what we imagine is at best a creative approximation to what is really there.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 21 June 2015 01:52:20 PM
but who is the Mysterious Mister Paranormal?

you are not telling, Ju4o san?  :-X

looking for him all i found was  definitions of the paranormal...
like
: very xstrange and not able to be explained by what scientists know about nature and the world - http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paranormal (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/paranormal)

Mr Para-normal is obviously not as snobbish as Mr Supernatural - he doesn't consider itself as superior, to compair his self-importance to nature itself. like, "anything which is natural, is inferior to me by definition!"
while nature, be whatever scientists, occultists or desperate housekeepers think about him, is as is, (or is it?) (unless Mr Super-Natural plans to change the interrelations between atom particles?)
norm, on the other hand, is not as is. it's defined by a group of sentient beings, and might differ from group (sosciety" "tribe" "flock") to group.

Mr Para-normal says just, "anything which is lower then me ("on the nazgul food chain"?) it not normal.

ok.
Mr Paranormal obviously consider himself above the low -
a criminal? a tyrant? legislator?
is this the case, Ju4osito?

Xsito? Gito ?Merlinito?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Merlin on 21 June 2015 10:09:45 PM
I don't see a distinction.
Paranormal / Supernatural are basically synonymous.

synonymous

1.  (of a word or phrase) having the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language.

Which is to say that Mr. Supernatural is aka Mr. Paranormal.
But he is certainly not Mr. Coincidence, Mr. Daydream, Mr. Topsy-Turvy or other known Mr. Man

What's Going On
https://youtu.be/Qy2Km7oly6M?t=1m12s
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 22 June 2015 11:35:25 AM
oops - missed ju4osito's answer to me (so many exciting new posts on page 9, that i never had another look at page 8)

Quote
"who is Mr Paranormal?"

Hello Ms Z.  Conceptually, Mr Paranormal is an explanatory anthropomorphism.  The first question I would like to consider is, whether an explanation is called for.

When Mr G announced the rules for Round A, I envisaged we might have some fun.  For the purposes of this post I would like to present an imagined sequence of events.  Let us imagine that Mr G would have reached across from his desk to the nearest bookshelf and taken out the first book which came to hand.  For example ...
...

J4: Interesting.  I guess 'parameterization'.

Mr G: Correct.

Well, as you all know, it didn't exactly happen like that.  What went wrong is that Mr G, for Round A, not only chose a 3-letter word, but he went so far as to tell us in advance that it was a simple 3-letter word.  I immediately felt that to correctly guess the word 'hat', given that we had been told in advance that the word was only 3 letters, would be so darned unimpressive that I couldn't bring myself to do it.  Therefore I had to choose another tack, as we have seen.

But my question now is this:  what if Round A had gone like I imagined it could?  What would people think?

all i can tell, Ju4osito, is what i am thinking now.
hmm
cross-timelines telepathy...

too paranormalized for me!

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 22 June 2015 12:02:15 PM
Quote
what i am thinking now.
hmm
cross-timelines telepathy...

too paranormalized for me!

Thanks, great thought.  For me the only problem with it is that it does not help me continue my argument.

What I could do is offer an answer to my own question, and see how it goes.  To recap, here is the question: if the following diologue had popped up on the forum,

Quote
Mr G: OK folks, ready get set go.  For Round A the number is 14611498900249997356682144316044411105508199092393145435306

J4: Interesting.  I guess 'parameterization'.

Mr G: Correct.

what would people think?  Here is what I suggest some people might think:

Quote
It's absurd to say you "guessed" the word.  You couldn't possibly have done.  It's way beyond what one could call a "lucky guess".  Either Mr G gave you a hint, or you found a way of getting back from the number to the word.  There is no other realistic possibility.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 22 June 2015 06:55:01 PM
who possibly are your imagined  telepathicly challenged PARAMETERYSED people, Ju14?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 22 June 2015 08:55:22 PM
wait -
baited my homework, but -

i took it that G worked a method to get to a number and back to the word ?
otherwise what  all this complex method is for?

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 23 June 2015 04:10:03 PM
hello.

the two words do seem to be synonymous.

supernatural is more of a spiritual thing though in its cruder manifestations it does also include the kinds of pandemony things

this could be the first definition. that idea that the same thing could have and crude and refined form is not new as it is and good repeatable idea.

what do you think of ghosts or demons merlin, any experience ?

lucky guesses are a thing that is possible, luck of the draw. or maybe and supernatural being is guiding everything, that there is no telepathy or pyschospace, just and supernatural force.
or maybe it just luck. or something else.

mr x.

ps. pandemonium is such an nice word.

ppss. i cant belief i listened to that whole tupe merlin, and i enjoyed it.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 23 June 2015 06:52:06 PM
I'm curious about why you 2 think 'supernatural' and 'paranormal' are synonymous.

Or are you just saying that supernatural=bunk and paranormal=bunk and therefore they are the same thing.

Note, by the way, that the words have quite different histories.  Supernatural comes from medieval theology and paranormal comes from 19th century psychical research.

Homeopathy is an example of something that many people (if they are at all interested in it and know something about it) might regard as paranormal but not supernatural.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 24 June 2015 10:31:40 AM
Quote
Ju40: Homeopathy is an example of something that many people (if they are at all interested in it and know something about it) might regard as paranormal but not supernatural.

Quote
the words have quite different histories.  Supernatural comes from medieval theology and paranormal comes from 19th century psychical research.
was about to write that history is irrelevant for a word's meaning, and bla bla, maximum for it's connotation, than i caught your drift.
soetimes i'm really challenged, or, how did X put it? "a sweet summer child".

excuseme, fantastic 4 .
i still have some to learn.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 24 June 2015 03:12:49 PM
j.

i dont think the bunk line, i find both interesting.

the words seem synonymous as thats how it seems. for a layman they appear to be interchangeable or pretty much the same. like they have become over time slang for each other. that is my guess.

from wiki -Paranormal Activity is a 2007 American found footage supernatural horror film

the different historys is interesting. paranormal seems to be the more popular word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernatural
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preternatural
(some good reading, havent finished yet)
(on my google, paranormal came up straight away with the wiki page, supernatural went result pages deep without leading to the wiki page (due to the tv show by the same name))
(edit - adding "the" when googling supernatural fixes that. the supernatural.)

i read most of the homeopathy wiki page today. i have heard of the dilution part and it being discredited before though there were some interesting concepts in theory. is that something you belief in or have ever had paranormal experience from ?

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 24 June 2015 09:58:39 PM
Another thing worth looking up in wikipedia is cryptographic hash
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptographic_hash_function

To solve the problems of Round 1, what Mr G valiantly attempted to design is essentially a cryptographic hash function.  Round 1 began approximately like this:

Quote
Mr X:  I have generated 4 random numbers between 1 and 50.  Anyone is welcome to guess them.

Mr G:  I guess 2, 12, 12 and 40.

Mr X:  Your guess for the first number is correct.

There is a problem with this, which is that Mr X could have had a secret plan to convince us that telepathy is real when it is not, and he could have said that Mr G's first guess was correct whatever Mr G had guessed.

There is also a mirror-image problem, which is that Mr X could have had a secret plan to convince us that telepathy does not exist even though it does, and he could have said that Mr G's guess was incorrect even if it was actually correct.

A nice way to solve both these problems is for Mr X to create for each secret number an object H, which has the following properties:

(1) it is easy for Mr X to create H and post it on the forum
(2) knowing H does not make it easier for anyone to guess the secret number
(3) anyone who makes a guess can easily ask H "is this number right or wrong?" and H will answer correctly.

This does open up the possibility that a determined guesser could guess every number between 1 and 50 in turn until he or she chances upon the correct number.  But if we vastly increase the range of the random numbers, so that instead of being between 1 and 50 the secret number is between 1 and a million (for example) then it becomes infeasible to systematically try every number in turn.

So that is exactly what Mr G did.  Noting that there are about a million words in English, he changed the game from a number-guessing game to a word-guessing game, and he showed how to create the object H with (hopefully) the properties listed above.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 25 June 2015 08:50:39 AM
i will read that, the probabilty of understanding it all is zero, but it will read it.
so to will i review all posts by you and g about the rounds a and b, and do the all the exercises/repeat the calculations.

and i will still be left wondering what happened at the end of round b. the xhosa book. a guess that was never made.  a coincidence that came about due to things set in motion in this discussion, but not easily explained or probable. g didnt use the book for a round available for guessing, i didnt guess. it just sort of worked out, somehow.

g, between dusting off the xhosa book and deciding to leave it, what word from that book were you going to use , what was the page line word number ?

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 26 June 2015 08:43:00 AM
Quote
… Mr X could have had a secret plan to convince us that telepathy is real when it is not, and he could have said that Mr G's first guess was correct whatever Mr G had guessed.

There is also a mirror-image problem, which is that Mr X could have had a secret plan to convince us that telepathy does not exist even though it does, and he could have said that Mr G's guess was incorrect even if it was actually correct.

A nice way to solve both these problems is for Mr X to create for each secret number an object H, which has the following properties:

(1) it is easy for Mr X to create H and post it on the forum
(2) knowing H does not make it easier for anyone to guess the secret number
(3) anyone who makes a guess can easily ask H "is this number right or wrong?" and H will answer correctly.

This does open up the possibility that a determined guesser could guess every number between 1 and 50 in turn until he or she chances upon the correct number.  But if we vastly increase the range of the random numbers, so that instead of being between 1 and 50 the secret number is between 1 and a million (for example) then it becomes infeasible to systematically try every number in turn.
thanks ju4o, very well explained.

since i missed some parts of this thread, dew to having limited access to electricity at the time, i didn't have a clue what you were doing, and red it as a comic sketch of a gamble getting hotter and hotter - was a good laugh!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preternatural  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preternatural) (the wiki X posted,)
Quote
Theologians, following Aquinas, argued that only God had the power to disregard the laws of nature that he has created
me (to yah - god) "do you  have that power"?
yah: [keep silent]
[me] "can you create a hole so small that you can't enter it?"

yah: i did (meaning the mess the world turned into)

i  laughed for 5 minute.

feeling better now.  started this  morning depressed - a rare emotion with me this days\years.

someone (guess who?) (did i just inventedd new code for you to guess?) (the devil himself or one of his minions, da; but which one?) changed the  language definition in my chrome browser, so the spell checker marks each individual word red; once i corected it, then it returned partly - as if the spell checker is tuned to some weird version of English; than it returned to  mark all red.)

dew to being tired (my dog woke me asking for breakfast, then i made the (fatal?) mistake to open my laptop instead of getting some more sleep) i wasn't sure about the spelling of "hole", and without a check speller, went somewhere else to get the correct spelling - when i returned, the red marks disappeared.

thank you anonymous helper(s)!

the last typed word was "wha (left in the middle)

well such are my life over more then the last decade. Anything I'm trying to do is sabotaged. i gave up receiving any reward for any of the jobs  i'm doing - money is my logistic, not my goal - as long as my logistic is somehow taken care of, what does it matter?
yea, i lack some of the honor i deserve for, say, cleaning the beach i lived on, translating\writing some hand books and poetry, or preventing some bedass bitches from causing even more harm; but  so far, as long as my work is done, i chose to put up with it.
then,  i got an offer to do some trasnlating job.
which i reconed  is practically possible.

oh, euphoric happiness! to do some simple (or complicated) decent work and be paid for it!  imagine you had to give up, say, sex for more then a decade... (could you imagine\believe such a thing is feasible? i couldn't have) then you see an opportunity to do away with the spell - then something stupid like this spell checker thing remind you that you can't do the simplest task as long as anonymous factions are capable of changing your definitions.
some changes are way too complicated for you to solve - but even the simply correctable, are regularely  checked back to error on "their" leisure.
(besides my spell checker is postponed, not recovered - which is good enough, it gives me the joy to notice i can spot when i don't know a spelling.)(edit: still a lot to correct)
- what was i saying? i think i'll go back to sleep... or shall i go shopping? shops closing early on fridays in my absurd country, and yaalalyah needs his walk...
dobre-odri
(this supposed to be Russian for "good morning," as i learned from a nice couple of Russians touristd i met on my paths) (took me hell to check, as usual; google translate and this and that stop functioning, eventually i googled the Hebre "good morning in Russian and got the pingo:
"Dobroye utro"! )

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 28 June 2015 08:06:27 PM
Hi, sorry for the radio silence, busy time at work... talk later.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 29 June 2015 07:50:09 PM
hello,

ms z, congratulations. money is not only good for logisitics, such as shelter food and electricity, but it is good for giving you options, choosing what you want to do.

mr g, there is no rush. it is good to hear from you. the lull has provided some time to read up on some things.

mr j, if there is an easy explanation and i am missing something obvious, in post #119, where did base 16 come from.
the gecryption method is interesting. it doesnt prevent collusion, and i doubt any system could. it is fun doing the calculations.

trying to pad the numbers to unlikely realms i have had an problem with the wolfram site where the input data is too big, and it requires premium access.

how would this work. if this is nonsense then it doesnt matter, just some incomplete thoughts.
there is an book. instead of the isbn, the title is the first sequence, varied in the way titles are.
there are 5 numbers, generated from words randomly chosen. the page number line number and word position number are added to make each of the 5 numbers. the word is just the verification code.
i have no idea.
http://i.imgur.com/2nvWuUJ.gifv

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 01 July 2015 07:14:15 AM
Quote
ms z, congratulations.

thank you dear, but what for?

Quote
money is not only good for logisitics, such as shelter food and electricity, but it is good for giving you options, choosing what you want to do.
oh, sure.
i lived without any when i had to, no prob... but it's nice to see coffee shops from the inside and have twice as much wiped-cream on my black forest piece of cake.

oh, so you mean the job offer?
but isn't it a bit early? this bird is still on the tree...

or do you reckon my victory over the red underlines was practically  the end of all Stupid Obstacles?

i- we - 'll never have a chance to check it, for The Red Lines are back
http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=12.msg930#msg930 (http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=12.msg930#msg930)(post #108)

(wait - i CAN quote my own posting on the shu-shu region, cant i? thus:
Quote
P.S. shit!  my cursor jumped to the middle of a previous  word ("story" was the word) while i was typing another word - i copy- pasted the back of Baron Minchausen's horse back to place - and again - each single word (few exceptions -  "i am" , "ping", P.S., Baron) is underlined red!

is it some bug invoked by the jump of the cursor?
could the very use of pss have triggered it in the first place somehow?
i know - my assuptions relating programming are hilarious too often... but motivations i can pretty diagnoze - could someone (WHO? futile question?) have possibly place that pss as a bait for me to involuntarily summon the bag into manifestation?
i copy- pasted my reply to word doc... reversed the page, clicked "reply" again... pasted the reply... all red lines.
i should have copied it to notebook i know - was lazy to open notebook doc  for - how not - i'm so tired and striving to finish... yaalalyah my dog protested, felt my intent for a real walk... too late? we'll see.
i'll try again - notebook this time.
all red.

hey - who\whatever does it -

STOP!
before it's too late!

and as only god has the power to disregard the lows of nature...

i didn't even find the courage to send them mail saying i'm about to be late with my test, with or without an excuse.

luckily they send me a  mail, so i replyed saying i have problems i don't see yet how i am about to solve, but i'll do my best, and i hope, believe and will do my best to make them happy for their patience with me.

ritualistic third time: i'll do my best.

but i'll need some help.

can't work this magic alone - or rather - did i? anyway it's postponed by now.

so, what's next?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 01 July 2015 01:21:16 PM
P.P.S. - i have an improvement round to a primal question of this thread:
Quote
X: yes or no, bigfeets alien ufos ghosts or fortune telling physics.

well - i had several encounters with aliens.
but all in dreams.
so, according to the writer of this thread, they don't count.

but yesterday, as i was reading conspiracies (instead of invoking more red lines by trying to advance with my test for employment) - reading about The Valiant Thor... i had an increasing feeling that i know the guy.

i am used to discerning very far-out  mystical stuff merely by the strength of my phisycal sensations, and/or  emotions.
In this case - took me some exaggerated amount of reading  to notice - my emotional reaction to this guy was really really strong. (i mean in a positive way.)

What if I met him?
started the routine search procedure: could he be this one? could he be that one?

then i got the bingo!

kali.

this is what he called himself.
he wore this word, "kali", on a medallion on his neck.
wow!

he really looked venusian lol... a bit like in those new-age fancy paintings - tall, blond, long hair, young (19 i think he said), well-build.

this was a weird night.

After some harsh adventures which made me reluctant to hitch by night, I reckoned I can take a night train instead of paying another hotel.(it was rainint dogs and cats.) I bought a ticket to the station after the train change, planning to continue with the night train further, in the hope there is no control in late night. (these days I was doing such things – at least tried few times… not any more. I became pedantic about keeping legal. )

it was during my quest for magic mashrooms (a single occasion in my life i was after a so-called drug - like 40 years i don't touch any out of my own consent *)  after the vandage i made in south-France. This followed  meeting my old friend Kaminante, on the road.Kaminante said he was going to pick some mashrooms to gift his friends, the followers of Rina Shani, or Rain Shein as she called herself when transformed into kind of a  guru. He said he will stop at his hippies friends at San Michell.
the very same journey when I was followed by 3 allies (hey, saw them also in waking! but this will be taken by non-beliefers for hallucinations or delusions…  meeting a person is another level of "proof"!**)

getting out of the train I discovered I made a mistake – it was one station BEFORE the train change, not AFTER.  And the hour was The Cinderella's.

Leaving the waiting room a tall lean man in his thirtys approached me. where are you going? – just waiting for the next train. – next train? only in  3:00! What will you do meanwhile? –will try to nap. – I am the engine  driver, living in this town - like to come with me home?
–well… (hesitated)
– Just get some rest until the next train, which I am scheduled to drive?  You'll be back on time, I can't be late.
You don’t mean something like… you know?  I will not.
Sure. Just get some rest. Drink something.
A coffee?
I can fix that.
Thanks, yes. let's go.

He kept his word allright. left me in a room with a bad and went to another. Later woke me for the coffee.
Eventually he got very upset with me. I don't remember the details – something that I said… or did? My memory here is blurred – I remember a dance I performed really pissed him, but i wasn't dancing yet? It was kind of illustration during some abstract talk – (French, thus  verbally challenged) about - ?   his life?  mine? good and evil?  Morals?
I remember clear only how pissed he got. Oh, maybe he did expect a quickie, I behaved so against the French code.  he said dryly it's time to go. escorted me back to the station and hurried away.
I went out of the station – shall I really buy a ticket? Or wait till the morning and hitch on?
Out in the street, a car stopped.
"Were are you going?"
"San Michel."
"I go to Paris. I will arrive in the morning. You want to come?"
I looked at his face, excited by the street lights. . He looked intellectual, scholary. French elegance. God looking.
Paris was my next destination – to visit a friend – I could have revered the order?
On impulse I said "no, thanks." He drove away.
Than I saw Kali, waving from the other side of the street.

he had a wierdly tall rock-sack on, higher than his head. Later he said it was a Belgian army back pack.
(mine was a left over from my  army service.)
I have to go…  might continue sometime.* *

* Alas, I can't claim any more "40 years since I touched any drug"…I got incriminated last April a by a French Shaman substitute who didn't bother to warn me that "the medicine" he passed around the tepee at the end of the vision quest he guided contained some peyote. (Not the vision quest i participated, under the excellent guidance of Joel Jojola, a genuine shaman - during Knut's ceremony i stayed in camp as a supporter.) first Knut instructed that everybody inhale 4 puffs of "medicine" – tobacco - and I did, though 30 years since my last cigarette,  choosing not to upset the group with the big scandal that would have developed.… than he passed a liquid "medicine". I drank a wee bit, unsuspecting, and felt something was wrong. Asked my neighbor: "is it psychotropic"? - "yes." Oh I was filled with rage! but decided to keep the scandal for a private session. the effect, mainly: closed-eyes I saw the spiral forming  a straight line, instead of  a circle. And the flames changed. I pushed them back, and went to sleep (on the spot, didn't move that rainy freezing night) thinking not much damage caused – I was very wrong! Realized that only when I was acknowledged how one whose guardian I am was exposed to sever danger. (the others? I don't know.) Anyway – Knut, approached in the morning, totally freaked. "what was in t accused me of neglecting guardianship of the mountain climbers (as he claimed before, when I resisted his sever pressure to go into sweat lodge) being an outsider and outcast (lie, I was very nicely accepted) – well… I did drink it… like a sweat summer child tempted to drink a rape drug? In my age?  My fault!  yet also his.
**But thinking again, no – dream or real life, all the "proof" is but my recognition – which anyone with scientific mind must consider totally subjective. It's not that the guy gave me his medal – or else, that I stole it from him, as he suspected on a certain moment – and later a lab check-up found   Venusian Pogrons in it… (what's Pogrons? Well – some other time. I really have to go…)
***oops! Seems It fell exactly the time of the maintenance break aspen have mentioned here… http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=48.msg846;topicseen#new
Anyway I'll have to try later, what else can I do?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 01 July 2015 02:24:22 PM
quickly,

french shamans, jojola, what do they offer you that you cannot provide yourself ?
why do you seek their systems. aside from isolation, why cant you make your own system ?

x
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 01 July 2015 07:55:19 PM
Hello everybody, yes i also have a question similar to Mr X's.

J4, i think your point was well made and I think I learned the lesson. If there is another reason you wish to further the argument, please continue, i am interested. I would also like to know if you think it is possible to test for supernormality (which word is now agreed upon?), and if you think it is a worthwhile pursuit.

With regards to Ms Z and shamanism and Mr X and fight club, I would also like to read your thoughts on if it is possible to encourage supernormality, whether some systems/schools to achieve this are inherently superior to others and, again, if you think it is something one should do.

I find myself back in a zone of supernature, reality has a different flavour I recall from earlier times when I was actively working on it. This time i think it's more from pulling out weeds in my mental garden than planting any particular seeds.

X, I didn't pick a word, just the book before I abandoned the idea. I'm trying to recall if i checked to see if the book was on amazon before you posted. If i did, i guess that opens the possibility that you know how to track my internet activity. Perhaps you are a hacker or a NSA agent... Maybe that's what j4 is working towards with his "what would you think" type questions.

Regarding the book sync (if it wasn't cyber sleuthing), that still isn't the weirdest one for me. The winner must be the time you posted a gif of a relatively minor actor whose face happened to be paused on my screen for most of that day. But that too could be explained if...

I enjoyed sense8, i think probably their best work since the first Matrix.

Ms Z, if you say you encountered aliens in dreams, do you mean they exist separately from you and you communicated through dreams, or that it was just a dream fantasy?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 02 July 2015 09:48:20 PM
"french shamans, jojola, what do they offer you that you cannot provide yourself ?
why do you seek their systems. aside from isolation, why cant you make your own system ?"

Looking forward to whatever Ms Z may say about that, meanwhile here are some interim thoughts.

I see it in terms of a multi-step interlinked argument.

1) Is the paranormal real?  We have been experimenting to find this out.

2) If the paranormal is real, then it means that the fabric of reality is probably quite different from what most scientists and materialists think.

3) If the f of reality is not how materialists think it is, then there is a reasonable chance that it might be how shamans think it is.

4) If there is a reasonable chance that reality is how shamans think it is, then it could be well worth while making a journey, even a quite arduous one, to meet some actual shamans, or at least some actual possible shamans, in order to find out what they say about reality.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 03 July 2015 12:17:42 AM
hello mr g,

the hacker thing is reasonable, i thought that to. both for round 1 (which i generated in my browser) and the book, it briefly flashed through my mind as an possible explanation. "ive been had !" "ive been hacked !" but no that is not it.

i was waiting to hear your thoughts on the book before thinking to much into it. i am already resigned to that sync getting thrown on the heap of interesting but unexplained syncs. it seems it was just luck or coincidence how that came about. they way that sync happened, calling it telepathy or physic seems like an big stretch. yet i still think there is an little bit more than pure luck to it.

with overflow leading to indaba, leading to xhosa, leading to mention of xhosa, leading to the sync, there is little factors. such as you switching the round to words, so i would of been paying slightly more attention to words than usual. or that overflow would not of happened that strongly at that point in time if i hadnt of talked about my system with you.*

the fillion gif, while i cant remember now, again was just the way things went. no mind reading or trickery.

sometimes i wonder if you and i have some sort of undefined connection. but mostly i wonder if you are somewhat in someway sensitive, im not going to use words like physcic, but there is something there. like some gravity is pulling these sync to you. in round 1 i did nothing but use an rng site, in round b i just googled a word that left and impression. that leaves you as the explanation, or something inbetween.

i do think it would be possibly possible to encourage or generate the supernormal/paranatural/preteraverage. how, that i dont know. schools and systems i am not educated enough in such things to answer. shamanism does seem to be an functional system for modifiying your view of the world (as an total system, not just casta style).

if you think it is something one should do

good question, the only good answer seems to be that it is up to the person. it seems deeply personal. maybe it depends on what people seek. inner peace or knowledge of the supernormal.
its a personal choice. my only general advice is - be careful. i was going to say more but then i recalled you already know this, you are careful. i like the mind garden thing.

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

the mojo of forum4 lately has made me want to do some field exploration again. just ghost stuff.

x

*
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 07 July 2015 01:39:32 AM
Quote
i propose we add some sort of interactive actiony bit to this thread. questions can be added to the first post, and proposed actions can be added.
! !! !!!
Quote
for example, z, you belief in god,
belief? i'm not sure this is the term. rather, i know God, as i know, for that matter, you. do i believe in you? Any need to doubt it?
both of you i know in a virtual manner: and chances are, i'll never see both your faces - providing you have any? but nevertheless, i belief, due to my  experience, that you 2, yah and x, do exist.
and SR Templar would have operate all alarms by now: "frauds!  swindlers! scoundrels!"  but i think some naive trust is sometimes very healthy.
for all kind of weird laws of physics and whatnot, i consider my chances to see any of your faces not so great... but - am i delusional to believe you do have one? or two? or infinite? (my arithmetic sucks)
(ooo - red lines again, seems spell checker is on french or the like)
(it was on "English". Settled.
Am I talking too much?)

Quote
is there and action or technique or some sort of activity that could lead to some sort of experience of your god.

yes.
Lets separate "experience" into 2 phases:
1)   notice his presence, or  Making the acquaintance
2)   Communicating with him (for whatever reason – but since he's a father image, it usually take this drift.)
I'll continue when I'll wake – got to sleep.
kalimera filos mu
edit: continue:
as for  1) - i'll shift to first person singular, for i only can describe my own experience; though it includes a group with valid functional procedures for creating circles, specifically for the purpose of getting yah's (allah, god...) acquaintance and communicating with him, i am not sure wheather this option still exists – I'm afraid their valid procedures have been turned null, more or less, due to the compelling attacks targeting anyone who intend to contact any being from outside of the perceptual prison in which we live, God Almighty included. And since they are no warriors by definition… how can they possibly defend themselves?
the group is called Subud
http://www.subud.org/

Quote
Subud is an association of people who follow the spiritual practice known as the Latihan Kejiwaan, an exercise[/b] of surrender* to the divine force within each one of us. …
Subud is open to people of all religious affiliation, as well as those with none. … there is no particular Subud dogma that they are required to accept. The essence of Subud is the personal experience of the latihan.
There are active Subud members in 83 … Fifty-four of these countries are members of the World Subud Association. … [which] exists to enable national Subud bodies to work together and support the practice of the latihan, as well as to foster the educational, cultural, social and entrepreneurial activities that Subud members are involved in.
[/i]
http://www.subud.com/spiritual.html
1984-5 version:
latihan is being in direct, personal contact with god, different for each person, different at each session.
To be able to receive Latihan, you need "to be opened" as the jargon calls it, i.e – do latihan with a group of already "opened" practitioners. a group of several helpers gather for the event of opening a new subud member.
The decision about one's opening as all decisions concerning subud issues is god's, received by means of "tests": helpers gather, one say loud a question, all perform short Latihan, during which each receives an answer. (if the answers are contradicting – a rare event – then it have to be checked, by change of wording, asking more questions and so on.)
after procedural 3 month of waiting (since a dandidate asks to be opened to  latihan) helpers would test at the candidate's request "is it X's time to be opened now?"
once open, one may attend group latihans, done twice a week. once he feels he can perform latihans on his own, heshould test it first.   All group decisions are made by tests. Testing is also good for personal questions.
* here they gone! "surrender" was not a subud  jargon in my days as an active Subud member. And "divine force within"? my #[email protected]&! rather   imposters' fingerprint... The official translation of  "Latihan Kejiwaan " was then "spiritual exercise".
In casta terms I understand latihan as a shift of assemblage point.

As for 2): (also starts with personal experience, but soon arrives at the Saraf knowledge – a set of procedures valid for a mass.)
Subud:
after opening,  most people go during Latihan thru a cleansing process. Once their pipes  opens, so to speak, they start receiving guidance – about their life, love, career, family…
my own cleansing was extreme – I was flailing on the floor crying or screaming during latihans, recalling, re-living, pains from a bunch of past-life traumas (I didn't "believe" in past life, until memories became too clear to deny;  nor in god, until he answered my questions.)
according to a test (in which I was too newbe to participate, but I agreed my helpers do for me) I did Latihan separate from my group, with helpers only. Later they surprised me saying they tested (without asking my consent! Which was contra Subud procedures) and i'm to return to the group.
Anyway – my proper relatiions and teaching started when I got a new boyfriend, Michael, and was not too happy to apply to these same 3 helpers with my intimate affairs. During a group Latihan I spontaneously shoot – "what is correct for me to do about Michael now?"
I received – in English for some reason – 1 word:
"worship."
2 month laters, I have broke with  Michael, yet he still lived in my place, with another friend too, all was very hectic – again a question shut out of me during a group Latihan:
"what is correct for me to do about Michael now?"
I received a sequence of movements – the one I later called "the dance of the north".
(can't demonstrate…  videotape… nothing -  I'll skip verbal description – to complete somehow sometime hopefully)
I asked "may I have some interpretation?"
Received the same (very simple) sequence along with the feeling, and the word, "joy, joy."
Said (a bit aggressively) "yes, but what to do!" received, in imitation of my aggressive manner: "do it every day!"
Saraf knowledge:
So I did.
A week or two later I strangely forgot my training one day, though I was very eager to learn. The next day, I felt strong reluctance and was about to force myself, when I received – "don't, wait."
I waited.
Few days later i received the west.
…then, on a cap roof at sunset, the east.
Then the south.
The north is the direction of the priestess – her initial positon  is being a mother, spread her wings over her kids; from there she can spread them further over her tribe.
West is the direction of the child – he lives on his charm, he constantly transforms raw power, [="nagual"], into methods of performance [tonal].
The east is the sun or the parent; generously, indiscriminately he spreads light and warmth to all.
The south is the snake or the hunter; he hunts in order to satisfy his own hunger, he is cunning, he touches earth all over and can transform her energy to any direction.
… in short –
I became "officially" a warrior once I got pregnant and had to leave  my country to deliver my son out of dangers (but why?)
I was indifferent to anything but his rescue – otherwise I would have  been unable to overcome  disbelief, and fall. As was, I didn't care whether all this – ancient tribes, magical fights… … unseen pregnancy… was true or my imagination. I just wanted my ittle spark intact.
– from that point, as DJ put it, l claimed knowledge as power – methods/tecniques of Saraf knowledge as means to overcome obstacles. soon I woke Charlie, from left side of awareness that is, and after a short overlap, Yah  stepped back and Charlie  took over my guidance, teaching, cheering up and defense.
Actually we are old and very trained team - since the foundation of the Sarafup to shortly after the last generation took off to the journey (in DJ's terms).
Quote

i think it would be interested to try out stuff, without beliefing in it or being invested. just looking for direct experience, wether is is strong weak or novel experience..

i was think about this due to talking with g. constant consumption is version 2 of and older thing. version 1.5, which was un named, was and reaction to the terrible brutal version 1.

1.5 was pretty simple. try to find a ghost. no cameras or voice recorders or anything. a torch, some water and an knife. be alone. no thoughts of capturing and ghost and proving ghosts. only to capture it as your own experience.
ex;erjuments?
no,
I want more. I want to explode the  qarma  net, re-establish the tribe assembly, teach the knowledge to the high [[=elder] generations and to the young generations, prepare, and take off to the journey to the next dimensions field.

if you catch me before i crumble, i can teach some beginnings and give you ends of threads - originally my role in the tribe includs assisting charlie in teachng _ ostly dancem which is our method of knowledge.
calinixta

P.S. taka taka ke figume!

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 07 July 2015 03:22:56 PM
hello,

if god or yah can tell you jokes that make you laugh for 5 minutes, it sounds like you belief in it.
i am real, i am typing to you now. that is real. that does not make god real, though i sort of get what you are saying.

if i thought god was communication with me, i would question my mental state. that is my view and i dont hold everyone on earth to that standard. discerning if god exists has been around as long as humans. so i am not going to casually figure out if god exists.

i belief in mars, and i belief an human could gets their boots on the ground of mars. though i am certain, in an thousand years, i would never be able to get there myself. without the swell of science through the ages, culminating in rocket ships that are the work of countless minds and lifes works, nobody would. in that respect i dont ignore the thoughts and information of people who do belief in god or try to find god, but just because mars is there, that does not mean i will ever touch it.

when your computer is tupe capable,
(while trying to find that scene, i found this sweet tube too - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MvokZ7rCTA )

ps. yes ghosts, like haunted houses ghosts. wether what people report as ghosts being actual dead souls i dont know.

ju40,
out of curisosity, why did your multi-step interlinked argument default to shamans.

in 3)
then there is a reasonable chance that it might be how shamans think it is
why is not
then there is a reasonable chance that it might be how paranormal researchers think it is

4) If there is a reasonable chance that reality is how paranormal researchers think it is, then it could be well worth while making a journey, even a quite arduous one, to meet some actual paranormal researchers, or at least some actual possible paranormal researchers, in order to find out what they say about reality.
(this is quite funny, version 4 of my system is very close in essential quality to 4))

i can guess the difference is researchers are trying to understand and document the paranormal, while the shamans are living it.

shamanism however, i dont think its the greatest system on earth, just seems to be functional. at modifying your view of the world. which does not mean or guarantee experience of the true supernormal. just because an system is functional, does not mean it is good or you should use it.

one criticism of the shaman system i have is - any system using intoxication/ rituals/ spirits has an problem with state dependent memory. i cant really explain, just it seems being consistent calm and smooth as you build knowledge of the superparapreter is and good quality in the long run, different than massive bursts of perception that only happen under certain conditions.

interested to hear what you think. your analysis of the guessing rounds was in depth and thorough. now the paranormal.

x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 08 July 2015 06:02:21 PM
What I was getting at was that paranormal research (steps 1 and 2 of the multistep) is interesting because it bolsters the possiblity that shamans (steps 3 and 4) are worth trying to seek out.

Paranormal researchers demonstrate over and over again that there is something terribly weird underlying the fabric of reality, but that's as far as they are able to get.

Who gets further?  One answer is, shamans.

But there are 2 big difficulties: shamans tend to live in mountain fastnesses, or in desert vastnesses, or at least they did until recent times, and secondly, the merest contact with a shaman wreaks havoc on the ego of the searcher.

To counter these difficulties needs a strong motivation, and that is where the multistep can help.

Your reasons for being wary of rituals spirits etc are very valid I think.  I also get the feeling that you are very wary of any people being regarded as somehow special.  Here is a comment about that,

Quote
Something Trungpa Rinpoche said to me during my time at Samye Ling [in Scotland] has always echoed in my head.

I had just come from working in the garden and heard my name called. I looked to the balcony and saw Trungpa Rinpoche sitting on the floor near the bathroom. He waved to me and said he needed my help getting back to his room. As I approached him I could detect the odor of alcohol in the air. I of course had heard all the rumors of drinking, drugs, and sex, but had never seen anything myself so I was trying to be fair, though it did taint my mind. I helped him up and back to his room, and as we entered he said, "I understand you have been having trouble meditating. Sit here," he said, gesturing toward some pillows at his side, "and meditate for me." What ran through my mind was something like, "What can this drunken person do for my meditation?" Suffice it to say, after a bit I could feel him in my head cutting this bind, untying this knot, and releasing this staple until the top of my head floated free and I had 360-degree vision!

As I was turning the doorknob and bowing to him he said, "Always separate the man from the teacher."

This has stood me in good stead and I will always carry it with me.

~Bob Gottlieb
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 08 July 2015 08:18:42 PM
Hello again everybody.

Mr X, turns out you were right to warn me to be careful. It seems that feeling of supernatural may have been a little "mania", of the "manic depressive" variety. Hope I'm not getting too personal here but I'd like to share it. I don't know if it was something specific I did, a way of looking at the world as supernatural, or if it was a disconnect from normality, but it led to one of the worst "episodes" of anxiety/depression I can recall. Luckily it only lasted about three days, and strangely I felt a complete assurance that I just had to ride it out like a cold. I'm fine now, and was fine throughout, but it wasn't a pleasant experience. It just made me think I'll have to be more careful still.

"Always separate the man from the teacher." That has a great ring to it, speaking as a teacher (of the normal kind). There is a strange kind of disconnect between students and some teachers that is really hard to bridge. For instance, I am really "uncool" and nerdy, so there are plenty of "cool" students who can humiliate me in front of their peers with a quick remark or stinging comeback. This can "ruin" you for the others as well, and in the end it's them that suffer. It's a real tightrope walk to keep your credibility without getting involved in a "coolness" contest. I almost don't want to say it for fear of jinxing it, but I find that as long as I focus on the fact that they are in class for the express purpose of learning something from me, things tend to work out. (Almost magically, one might say...)

Anyway, here's to mental stability and evenness of mood. Cheers!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 08 July 2015 10:06:45 PM
Quote
if god or yah can tell you jokes that make you laugh for 5 minutes, it sounds like you belief in it.
("lier!  Lier! Hat on fire!")
"it"? the joke? God?
no need for belief in order to  laugh...  breath... live.
the other way around? sometimes.
(Masada rebels  committing suicide – the whole community – to avoid captivity and enslavement by the romans. "shaheeds" blowing  themselves up to mass kill and get their 72 virgins?)
Like the "knaanyte" poet Yonathan Ratosh/Uri Shelakh, , (the knaanyt movement's founder - they preached locals should abandon all rotten Jewish reference and link into (nonexistant?) knaanite roots (anyway they didn't prosper) according to my  dad's favorite anecdote: roaring in laughter at my dad's joke, he abruptly stopped, made a straight face:
"this is a Jewish joke - i hate Jewish jokes!"
Hate it or love it – when it's funny, you react with laughter. It's an impulse, not a belief.

So I did laugh for 5 minutes.
But was it god?
What is god?
whose god?
God who?

If one wishes to earn my trust, making me laugh is a good tactics. I trust my body, I love laughing.
(keep the good work, (∞+1)FD!)

But this is a matter of personal taste – or judgment – as my dad's Ratosh anecdote demonstrates.

as for shamanism:

Quote
just because an system is functional, does not mean it is good or you should use it.
it ia not a single system - it's multiple, different in sheere intent as well as methods. can you put don juan and dirty sanches?
(besides i reckon the aforementioned knut comes from this or similar "lineage",mixing north american indians traditions with  mexican-pyote tourism. i don't remember though the names on which this estimate is based.)

"shamanism", like "nagualizm", is a horrible term made up by researches (those with the ego crush problem probably)

- refering to Aghurah analysis -
the consonant Z means blocking
the vowl m means  materialization
2 sucsessive vowl-less consonants meaning - evil blokage (it is non existent in Hebrew grammer - but this days pronaunciation changes for the worst and no one knows the grammer)
the vowl i, ee means - moving toward myself [that is, the one who is taking moving towards himself)]
- thus the sufix -ism,- izm means:  [] -which get me blocked into materialization.

we better find a better term first thing to refer to whatever positive, or at least nutral phenomena we discuss, in order not to cause damage.
magical something?
kalinixta.
P.S. G - though i simpatize, the info on your situation is not enough for me to form opinion\advise.. if you feel like being more spefic, describing such "coolness battle" (or what was your term?) in detais...

anyway - the contract what they came to do on the class is nor for you to make alone. you want to teach seperately from who you are, they want to deal with a person with all that included. can you squeeze them magically into that corner -  forced to ignor you? do you really want to? are you really so uncool?(i do't beleive) can't you deal with it cooly?

define "cool"?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 09 July 2015 08:10:28 PM

Quote
just because an system is functional, does not mean it is good or you should use it.
Of course – choose from whatever exists or make your own - but if you find a functional one (again: not generalized "shamanism", and better call it by it's native name, whatever) – why not try it?
And what if you find one that you LOVE?

Quote
one criticism of the shaman system i have is - any system using intoxication/ rituals/ spirits has an problem with state dependent memory.
Rituals, like shamanic paths, are multiple phenomena. Some are designed to overwhelm, knock out so to speak, attendants into signing in to an agreement, others are a validation, a signature on contract [decleration of intent] (between one and others/ oneself).
Can be performed as a dramatic show or succinctly declaring intent.
Valid by magical law that is mostly null in our districts – yet unbreakable in proper use.

Quote
i cant really explain, just it seems being consistent calm and smooth as you build knowledge of the superparapreter is and good quality in the long run, different than massive bursts of perception that only happen under certain conditions.
Good luck with the superparapreter – personally I wouldn't touch it with a 3 meters long keisaku.
But, again, it's a matter of personal taste (or is it?)

Quote
"Always separate the man from the teacher."
Seems to be conflicting to what I told G…
Actually all I said – a teacher has no veto right concerning the agreement between teacher and student.
But there is more to it:
The way creatures – at least mammals – learn from their parent is – internalizing everything one's parents (or a parent figures) do.
(this is just the reason why it is so difficult to avoid repeating your parent's example, even when you hate it; particularly once you become a parent.  you can tell yourself thousand times what your parents did was wrong, yet find yourself doing just the same… aha.)
This is biology – nature's design. To enable one to act instinctively – fast, with no internal conflicts.
Teachers are parent figures.  Thus it is hard to shake whatever your teacher did wrong – particularly about his teaching subject, but not only.
Ever  after the closing of the tamahtufah,  giving a perfect – at least impeccable – personal example dropped from the list of requirements for teaching.
Aha.
So we are stuck with pedophile priests and womanizing "naguals" both demanding from others celibacy, drunken zen masters, and un-cool collage electronic teachers… none of which obliged to be perfect, impeccable or even "cool".
While electronics  (if I'm not too ignorant to form an opinion) or, say, architecture  you can manage to teach without being a thorough personal example, this is not the case in, say, Don Juan's teachings (magic?) – when the teaching includes a total change of behavior and being.
As debunkers rightfully claim, you can't require celibacy yet tempt female students; Or be a priest and seduce church choir boys.
To teach stuff like impeccability, re-arranging all one's energy, deleting personal history, or – let me find some examples from my own teaching (which might also fit into the inaccurate term "shamanism") moving neutrally, with no superfluous tension in the body – you can't if you can't present a personal example.
Quote
So I did laugh for 5 minutes.
But was it god?
What is god?
whose god?
God who?
-   Ok, I'm convinced.
-   You were typing to me when you did.
-   Sometimes laugh.
-   But who are you?
P.S. did I ever tell you how Charlie virtually slapped me?
That was totally effective.
Impulses rock.

Quote
There is a strange kind of disconnect between students and some teachers that is really hard to bridge.
it is [imo] the lack of a viable agreement between the 2 parties.
the automatic agreement rendered by the school/institution is distorted most cases - ...TCOTT+all the horror influences added since.the needs of the students are not met - they are forced to learn lot of boring surplous stuff, with is lethal for their motivation, destructive for the diamond head of their focus of attention so to speak, not to mention their yearning to have a parent, at least a brother  figure, who loves them and does his best to give them a perfect personal example. learning is so boring when imposed! pushes studeents to  entertain themselves by sadistically harrsing someone... other student or, better when possible, the teacher
none of your fault G - though you CAN take responsibillity.
Quote
what is love, or what does love got to do with it ?

In a meat sense (but not meant cynically), I think it's probably hormones that affect certain areas of the brain where certain subsections of the main meatprogram is stored. These subsections include, but is not limited to:

Pair bonding (to facilitate mating and child rearing)
Maternal / Parental bonding (to promote survival of the genes)
Team bonding (probably a hunting thing)
James bonding (a cheap, silly joke)
definition: love is a potential between fields of energy around humans - "luminous eggs" in casta terminology.
i have to go - will elaborate later.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 11 July 2015 10:31:21 AM
Hello Mr G. Have you read "Things a computer scientist rarely talks about"?

In case you haven't read it I've put it at http://zeta.forum4.org/txt/1575863278.pdf (http://zeta.forum4.org/txt/1575863278.pdf)

You already know this of course but for other readers of this thread, Donald Knuth is without any possible doubt the coolest computer programmer that there has ever been.

Bearing in mind that other readers of this thread might not even have heard of him, but that is part of the package.

http://xkcd.com/163/ (http://xkcd.com/163/) (hover over image for explanation)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 11 July 2015 12:47:32 PM
hello mr g,

recognizing an mental anomaly, comparing your experience to whatever you consider to be stable reality, and being skeptical of yourself. that sounds like being careful. being extra careful is also good, and there is such an thing as being too careful.

my question for you - should your experience of feeling the supernatural be discarded entirely because mania may of been the cause ?
when an person experiences mania, is every thought feeling emotion perception and experience invalid under those conditions.
mental states and exploration are so intertwined it is like wondering what was there before the universe.

it is interesting. mental processes such as anxiety and depression are normal common responses for the human mind. but they can become serious problems (such as if they happen for no reason). an interesting thing with how mental states relate to exploration of the weird is that it is and slippery slope rabbit hole (imo). for instance mania can be witnessed in evangelist churches. can we invalidate the experience of those people as being crazy simply because we view the world differently ?

have you ever though about how, if part of ones brain was abnormal, that part of the brain can process information differently, produce views that the "normal" part of the brain cant. if your mental state is changing from one thing to another, is there consistent signs that let you know it is happening. if you can know its happening, maybe you could divert it into an information path of your choosing. or at the very least know to just ride it out everytime. anyway i am happy to hear you are well.

by the way, for all your uncoolness, everytime i am reminded that you are an teacher, i think nothing but being impressed. it seems like and honest and dare i say noble profession (maybe if i could see what goes on in teachers staff rooms i might think differently.) i would not last an day standing infront of an class.
you know, for every jerk student that is trying to be cool, there is another student that is there to listen to you. and they respect you.

mr x.

ps.
this tupe is just in tribute to the only other peice of rough info i could pull from the indaba business.

ppss.
j, intersesting.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 15 July 2015 12:42:43 PM
hello j,

Quote
Who gets further?  One answer is, shamans.

But there are 2 big difficulties: shamans tend to live in mountain fastnesses, or in desert vastnesses, or at least they did until recent times, and secondly, the merest contact with a shaman wreaks havoc on the ego of the searcher.

To counter these difficulties needs a strong motivation, and that is where the multistep can help.

what brand or system of shamanism do you like or recommend, aside from sanchez (quotes to reflect the brand would be nice).
if you had to pick one or two non shamanism systems that could lead to paranormal experience what would that be.

im not sure what to do regarding systems at the moment, but interested in having a look at other variations. most likely i will stick to my own system for now.

mr g,
regarding evenness of mood, and as an report of strongly unusual behaviour, on friday i drastically reduced my nicotine intake. unplanned and unexpected. ive only gotten cranky a few times for a few minutes, but wow, what an crisp clean form of stress that is.

i have also been having lots of dreams, most notably nightmares. not and big deal but notable as it is highly unusual and consistent.

mr x
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr G on 16 July 2015 02:58:25 PM
Hi, sorry this is just a placeholder post, but I don't want to look like I disappeared.

I've got a few too many things going on to be good company now, and I haven't finished reading J4's posted lecture. But it looks really interesting and I'll get to it soon.

Hi Z, I'll get back to you too. Please continue the conversation, I'll be sure to read it.

X, talking about Fight Club (and thus breaking the first 2 rules of fight club), Den of Geek recently declared Mr Robot the spiritual successor to Fight Club...

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/mr-robot/36114/why-mr-robot-is-fight-club-s-spiritual-successor

...but I think it flatters to deceive. Reading that might make Palahniuk Chuck a wobbly...

...but I'll give it a chance. Cheers!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 17 July 2015 01:06:09 AM
hello mr g,

my activitys yesterday evening was to watch 1x04 eps1.3_da3m0ns.mp4 of mr robot, then read the knuth lecture pdf. i enjoyed both.

mr robot pilot ep was out for weeks before the show started airing. it was offically on youtube and is on ice. have been wanting to mention it to you or ask if you have been watching it a few times.

stop reading about it before watching i say, there were some things i didnt notice until i saw some fan theories online, more fun to figure it out as you watch.

knuth pdf was good. the full book is probably really good. i was expecting it to be more complicated than it was.

mr x.

(edit to fix episode name)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 22 July 2015 11:30:16 AM
Quote
if you had to pick one or two non shamanism systems that could lead to paranormal experience what would that be.

I think we can agree it is non-shamanic, the question is if it is paranormal.

There are interesting parallels between what happened here and what happened in the SR experiments 10 years ago.

Leaving aside for the moment the uncanny weirdnesses which crept in both now and then and which are the really interesting bits I think, lets just look at the numbers to begin with.  Here are some measures of the unlikelinesses of the result of each experiment:

Experiment 1

SR (10 years ago, coin experiment) 1 in 33
F4 (round 1) 1 in 27

Experiment 2

SR (card experiment 1) 1 in 29
F4 (round 2) 1 in 23

Experiment 3

SR (card experiment 2) result within chance expectation
F4 (round A) no result since answer obtained by j4 without guessing

at which point the formal experiments petered out both times.

Those numbers are pretty impressive, and that's just the raw data analyzed very conservatively and not taking any account of the cluster of weirdnesses which crept in around, for example the "dreaming together" remark 10 years ago and the xhosa remark this year.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 22 July 2015 11:18:29 PM
Quote
ju4o:Those numbers are pretty impressive, and that's just the raw data analyzed very conservatively and not taking any account of the cluster of weirdnesses which crept in around, for example the "dreaming together" remark 10 years ago and the xhosa remark this year.

so i searched for the xhosha remark...
it goes:
G  asked x what caused him mention xhosha:
Before I say anything further, could you please explain in detail what on earth made you choose Xhosa as the language in your example?
edit: i misquoted this quote. fixed. apologise, G. meaned to summerize, not quote, then changed my mind and forgot to change the HTML.
Quote
"i apologize, i have frantically googled and searched my browser history for the word that sparked the thought of xhosa. i cant find it or remember it. there were are bunch of words, spanish, scottish, german, one xhosa that i was googling...

of course!
it's the storm kitten phenomena!

explain:
end of 2006 i think... a mail-friend and i conducted private experiment in telepathy.

rather a training - we intended it as preliminary to a future second attempt to dream together, since the first attempt was problematic and cut in the middle.

we agreed to ajust sleep and waking cycles so we will be awake every 5 houers, while each of us send a massage 3 time and recieve 3 times in 24 houers, shifting terms (one sends, the other recieve, next time the other way around.) (this was not so fair to 13 years old meitari - who needed a functioning mom -  i was exhausted 24/7...)
the massage we were supposed to send was a name we were supposed to choose for the other. but he misunderstood me at first and send a nmae he chose for himself.
i didn't recieve anything from him at the first round.  i did recieve a bunch of unpleasant or offencive words  from other sources though. booming voices and such. "eternal vagina" or the like. one combination of ugly cillables i reckoned was sent by ghost dog (but no proof.) than my friend mailed me:  - at "nevigation awareness/SR" (were we both were posting at the time) you used a word you would never ever use lest you  did recieve my massage subconciousely. can you at least deduce it logically?" a swift glance was enough: i replied "unregistered user" saying: "why are you storming like that?"
mailed back: is it "storm"?
"yes!"

next round he asked me to send a 2 words name including "storm". i chose "storm kitten".
the next day, openning "nevigating awareness":  "Miao!"( a citten emoticon).

shortly after that the forum was deleted by ghost dog.

it's mentioned in the mails, but i don't have his permition to show it to anyone.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: âspen on 23 July 2015 08:10:13 PM
Hello Z.  Your quotation from G in post #157 is inauthentic.

Hopefully you will be able to fix that easily.  But, could any of your other posts have inauthentic quotations?  The left hand margin says you have done 106 posts which is too many to check.

Can you suggest a solution?  It is not OK to have inauthentic quotations in a forum that is accessible to the public.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 23 July 2015 08:50:29 PM
hello j,

how many people participated in the sr experiments. and what was the dreaming together thing. (i had pretty much forgotten dreaming together was even an thing, was an novelty to see those words)

with the f4 rounds, the petering out / maxing out is also and interesting bit. after the xhosa thing its like my mind hit a wall of communication. it was much easier to not report or not try to figure everything out. weirdness continued but to try to make sense of it or coherently describe it became very difficult.

as mr g became less available, the strength or intenseness of the whole experience died down very much.

i also had the weird thought about how if telepathy or even just people being connected in an more than meat fashion were possible, it would not be an good idea to connect to myself. if we could swap minds for one minute, i would probably enjoy it, you however would not enjoy it.

i have reviewed the xhosa remark from my end, there is more to say about that, but not easy to describe.

more guessing rounds is not out of the question, but i think we should explore an bit further before doing that.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 23 July 2015 11:19:03 PM
Hello Z.  Your quotation from G in post #157 is inauthentic.

Hopefully you will be able to fix that easily.
done.

Quote
But, could any of your other posts have inauthentic quotations?

well - dono. geuss not, i do try to be accurate, but here, you caught me mistaking.
Quote
The left hand margin says you have done 106 posts which is too many to check.

well, i believe, if i quoted anyone wrongly, that person would have inform me and i would fix it.

Quote
Can you suggest a solution?  It is not OK to have inauthentic quotations in a forum that is accessible to the public.
hey, aspetino! is it pettiness day over there?

what about... someone relates to my sensational info?

it's implications are:

1.  telepathy exists and IS quite common (according to my and my friend's "experiment" or training)

2.  X's original xhosha remark very likely was, like in the case i reported, subconsious telepathic perception of G's  thought.

that far, that's about it. i reported only round 1 of that "experiment", waited for your reactions, wanted to keep the discution focused on one thing at a time.

but no reactions (unless you count aspetito's misquote remark).
Quote
x: with the f4 rounds, the petering out / maxing
out is also and interesting bit. after the xhosa thing its like my mind hit a wall of communication. it was much easier to not report or not try to figure everything out.

is this wall of commutication why you ignor me this time, xito?
repeate:
i believe your mentioning xhosha is like my mensioning "storming" in my above-mentioned "experiment": a manifestation of subconcious telepathic perception.
break that fog wall! relate!

P.S. planning and conducting that training, that person and me never had a doubt (each due to his own experience) in the possibility of telepathy as being not just provable, but also used as a working method.

as i implied in the other thread, i believe aiming low is what prevent you from hitting. and disbelief is what prevent you from aiming high enough.

i think i was stopped by the the same thing as a little child trying to throw stones, hop a rope and so on. never believed i can perform like the other kids and never mannaged to.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 23 July 2015 11:26:15 PM
hello j,

i also had the weird thought... it would not be an good idea to connect to myself. if we could swap minds for one minute, i would probably enjoy it, you however would not enjoy it.

???
why?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 23 July 2015 11:43:41 PM

As the american lady exclaimed, upon being told that the oriental monk in whose monastery she was a guest was able to read people's minds,

"You mean he reads my mind?  Oh the poor, poor fellow, I am so terribly sorry for him."
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 24 July 2015 09:12:00 AM

As the american lady exclaimed, upon being told that the oriental monk in whose monastery she was a guest was able to read people's minds,

"You mean he reads my mind?  Oh the poor, poor fellow, I am so terribly sorry for him."

are you implying X is actually an american lady?
or__?

P.S.  "imply" again...  who tries to hint-hint what? americam lady? oriental monky?
P.S.S. i got back to this unfasionable petty way of quoting since aspen's pettiness attack. tell me to stop if it's irritating.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 24 July 2015 09:56:35 AM
SR coin experiment, summary:

Tungsten, October 4th 2004:
Quote
Coin Experiment

We're conducting a PSI experiment which anyone can participate in.

I've selected some coins the total of which is under $2.00. Each day for the next five days I'll be "projecting" the total amount of these coins into the "ether". You may put your answers here in this thread. Thanks, Tungstenblue The coins are lying on the front center of a white table. Directly behind the coins is a small Navajo ceramic plate, two small yellow candles flank the plate and a larger green one is behind the plate. There are also four ceramic pieces I made myself that are on the table, plus a small family photograph. Guesses (October 4th): Tosk 73 cents Greg$3.42
Ghost dog $1.27 Audrey$1

(October 5th)

Garen valoo 99 cents

(October 6th)

Abe 2 cents
Jeremy 37 cents

Tungsten, October 6th:
Quote
:) We have a winner

Jeremy Donovan is the winner.................

It is exactly 37 cents.

Coin experiment is closed.........unless you want to guess the coin breakdown...............discuss!

Hey lets talk about doing another one......

Cards...........Anyone?

(The reason for Tungsten's mention of cards is that during the experiment, there had been a discussion of using cards instead of coins in order to give a richer set of possibilities.)

Greg added (October 10th) "My joke guess was purposefully out of bounds, because I'm totally devoid of any psychic abilities. However, it is entertaining to observe these kinds of experiments, because I do believe that some sort of non local information retrieval could exist, but I'll leave that to the others who have the esp talents... while I focus my energies on the mundane of trying to learn how to tile a staircase!"

Here is the analysis which I then made, October 22nd:
Quote
coin experiment analysis

Since I'm going to refer to it in upcoming posts (unless the combined forces of sanity succeed in shutting me up), I'd better post here an analysis of the coin experiment. Corrections welcomed.

Since we were not simply running it as a guessing game, but specifically as an experiment to explore the possibility of non-ordinary modes of perception (or of modes of synchronicity other than perception) it is proper to analyze it as such.

That is to say, we are interested not only in who won (as in a lottery), but in the more abstract questions of what - if anything - the results suggest about the unknown mechanics - if any - of what is going on.

For example, if the proportion of winners is significantly more than expected, or the proportion of losers significantly less than expected, that would be a suggestion that the experiment should be repeated in order to rule out the possibility of psi, collusion, or some other causative explanation or synchronistic mumbo-jumbo.

Since Tung stopped the experiment after the first winner, we can't assess the proportion of winners to losers directly (since we don't know how many more winners or losers there would have been if the experiment had run for the full five days), but we can still address the question by counting the wrong guesses preceding the right guess and seeing if that number is less than expected.

So the question is: how many wrong guesses would count as fewer than expected?

We had five wrong guesses followed by a right guess. (It's tempting to leave out Abe's guess of 2 cents, on the grounds that "some coins" means more than two, but let's resist the temptation.)

Let us derive the probability, assuming random guesses, of the game stopping within the first six guesses.

Code: [Select]
    Small print: Note: we want the probability of any of the first six guesses being correct, not just the probability of the first five being wrong and the sixth being correct.    To see the importance of this, imagine that the experiment had run a thoroughly unremarkable course and finished at the one hundred and fifth guess.    Well, the probability of all the first 104 guesses being wrong and the 105th guess being correct is actually pretty small, and does not bring out the unremarkableness of this outcome; what is really unremarkable about it is not that the game finished on the 105th guess (which is relatively unusual) but that it finished by the 105th guess (which is relatively usual).
Reluctantly allowing 2 as an admissible answer, we have 198 possible answers (2 to 199 inclusive), so the chance of the game proceeding for n or more guesses without a winner is (197 / 198) to the power of n.

Thus the probability of the game proceeding for 6 or more guesses without a winner is 0.970077

Thus the probability of the game not proceeding for 6 or more guesses without a winner is 0.029923

That is, a chance of 1 in 33 that the game stops within the first 6 guesses.

Which is a wonderful result because it means, roughly, that the probability of the coin experiment turning out as well as it did is approximately the same as the probability of winning were the membership of SR to troop down to a casino and stake collectively on a single roulette number (chance of 1 in 37).

** edit ** by the way, it's crucial to this analysis that Tung didn't advise in advance that he'd stop the game when a winner emerged. Without this vagueness on Tung's part, the game would have been much harder to analyze, since the multiplier wouldn't be (197/198) each time, but a descending series (196/197) ... depending on the points at which Tung logged on in the interim and had a look at the guesses so far.

Tung, on this occasion (unlike some) one is indebted to you for your laid-back and semi-detached nature.

If I had been more ruthless and left out Abe's guess of 2 cents (on the grounds that he was simply enjoying using a colloquial phrase in a language that is not his first language, and it would have been thoroughly inconceivable in the circumstances that Tungsten might have put only 2 cents on the table) then the odds (with 5 guesses instead of 6) would have worked out to 1 in 40 instead of 1 in 33.

However, it is good to be as conservative as possible when doing this kind of analysis as it helps keep the skeptics on board.  There weren't any complaints about the analysis which I actually made so I'll leave it as it is.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 25 July 2015 05:42:48 PM
hello,

thanks for the summary. i dont mind conservative analysis, even dry or cold or ruthless. it is not just for skeptics, but for beliefers. if persons wanted to seek true knowledge and true experience of the superpara it seems like an good idea to check that the knowledge they think they are learning is real.

what was the dreaming together thing ?

Quote
2.  X's original xhosha remark very likely was, like in the case i reported, subconsious telepathic perception of G's  thought.

that depends on the timing of indaba and clicking with xhosa. checking this thread, i am not exactly sure when indaba came into play but i am thinking around the 7-8th of june. mr g reports on 11th june giving up on his encryption system. and his xhosa book was part of that.

Quote
I think we can agree it is non-shamanic, the question is if it is paranormal.

http://i.imgur.com/PEkBoao.gif

the only part of my system i use on the regular is the holding pattern. during the guessing rounds, especially xhosa, i was messing around with the earlier system that the holding pattern comes from. which is sort of an homemade shaman system. sort of. a bit of this and a bit of that, a bit of antithesis.

what would you say is happening in an succesful guessing game. if it words or numbers, do you think those things are the information being sent and recieved. while words and numbers are real things, they are not real actual physical things, more context dependant information.

when the brain thinks an word, the activity of the brain would be very real. i dont really think, if such an thing as telepathy were possible, it would be as simple as sending or recieving some symbol. as we enter each others minds to send or recieve the symbol or information - would it be so clean cut. would we just with pinpoint accuracy communicate "2", or would the state of the brain activity producing "2" in both minds be the crossing of all sorts of mental activity, then merges at the point of the correct information. what other things could bleed over into both states of mental activity as the merge happens.

Quote
???
why?

there is an book on my desk. more than an few words on the front cover. spine is red. you are welcome to informally guess one of those words. it is touching my computer. informal but you are welcome to guess any of the words on the cover. any good guesses could result in an photo of it, on my g similar desk.

aside from mr g, the only other guesser we had was my assistant, miss -. and she was assigned to guess numbers for round 2 because i planned to use her numbers as mine. but she guessed 2 of mr g numbers so it didnt work (i still have the hand written note she left on my desk when she guessed). i am mentioning this because miss - really wants to try guessing again. she has absolutley no interest in forum4 but wants more guessing assignments.

mr x

ps.
i think any more guessing rounds would require some sort of discipline such as noting things down or keeping some sort of basic journal. no need for each participant to post the entire notes, just more for keeping track of things, when what happens and so on.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 25 July 2015 09:39:46 PM
dam.
[=blood, in Hebrew)or dome?
doom?
Dam.
Damm?

this jumped forcefully into my mind - dismissed it as being just association to your reminding red spine - but it is oddly strong.
closed my eyes tried to see the book - gold on brown text? foreighn language? forein alphabeit? or red? picture? black small text in latin letters?  a frame anyway, text behind it.
i think i'm seeing different books - there is a third, inspired by the voineech manuscript or something to that effect

i don't know what the link between then is

i feel mis -'s curiousity avoking - her book, one of them?
i hold back an impulse to delete it for fear to feel very stupid if non of it connected to anything

postpone the rest.
it's 00:38 my local time.
P.S. - sent the post and got a strong image of the name of a book i once edited (the Hebrew translation) -Damnation Ally, by Rojer Zelazney.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 26 July 2015 09:55:36 AM
woke this morning : "Jabberwockie!" and saw this pic:

heared in my thoughts just the meter, the ryme, of the Hebrew version (which i know from early age) - then few of the words emerged
לְעֵת בָּשָׁק, וּשְׁלֵי פַּחְזַר
ּּּ סָבְסוּ, מָקְדּו _ _  _ _...

נתיב התופת? ]=damnaton ally?]
a vision, quite graphic, that i'll skip, made me jump off bed and start cleaning. (or maybe it's otherwise a reaction to X's tupe with the cats food cans and ghosts).
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 26 July 2015 01:52:01 PM
Well, when the coin experiment closed there was quite a lot of enthusiasm for another experiment.  And there had been discussion of using cards instead of coins, to give a richer set of possibilities.  So, here is how it went:

Quote from: Tungsten, Tuesday October 12th 2004
Card Experiment

We have started a New Card Experiment.

There are three cards which have letters written on them. three letters in all which were selected according to the recomendations in the coin experiment. Three playing cards were drawn at random, using the table provided by emilio the letters were selected accordingly.

The three cards are lying on a black piece of paper on a white table with no other objects on the table, from left to right.

Members should guess the identity of the three letters in their correct sequence from left to right

each member will have one guess in the first round which will last until Thursday 8 pm Pacific coast time. at that time I will either announce a winner or start a new round. in the new round members will be allowed to guess again. round two will last until saturday noon, PCT at which time I will either announce a winner or start round three which will last until monday 8pm central time. At that time the experiment will be closed.

Members should refrain from multiple guess within a round.

members who post mulitple guesses within a round will have their posts deleted.

an e-mail has been sent to corey donovan who has agreed to be the witness to the experiment. The answers have been sent to him.

Guesses (Tuesday):

Tomahawk Kid A-D-L

(Wednesday)

Abe Z-L-A
Ghost Dog R-D-P

(Thursday)

Emilio J-V-K
Garen Valoo C-X-L

Quote from: Tungsten, Thursday October 14th
Re: Card Experiment

no winner

Round two begins now.

You may try again.

We will BTW use Emilio's point system if no one nails it, which means we'll have a winner one way or another.

Bye, Bye.

Good luck!

(Friday)

Jeremy S-W-B
Ghost Dog R-L-G
Audrey B-K-M
Greg I-P-Q
Tomahawk Kid T-N-T

(Saturday)

Garen Valoo G-R-M

Quote from: Tungsten, Saturday October 16th
Re: Card Experiment

I'm going to start the third and final round a little early. I'll be offline shortly so go ahead and guess...........

We'll wrap it up Monday.

(Saturday)

Emilio L-X-E

(Sunday)

Charlila Z-B-C
Ra6as C-V-E

(Monday)

Garen Valoo S-L-I
Tomahawk Kid N-N-L
Greg F-D-K
Tosk B-Q-F
Audrey A-C-L
Power M-C-H
Abe C-A-W

Quote from: Tungsten, Monday October 18th, 5:13 pm
Re: Card Experiment

Hello fellow Sr Experimentors,

I hereby declare and officially proclaim that the card experiment is now over. (strikes gavel.....bam,bam)

(clears throat),

I do hereby and with all powers invested in me announce the following winners...............

Grand Prize....Ghost Dog

Ist Runner -Up.......Greg Mamishian

2nd-Runner-Up.......Tomahawk Kid

Ghost Dog guessed R-D-P in the first round and R-L-G in the 2nd.

Greg guessed F-D-K in the third round

Tomahawk Kid guessed A-D-L in the first round.

There were no other correct answers.

[...]

Thanks to everyone for making these experiments a lot of fun.

Emilio had also proposed a way of scoring each guess so that there would be a winner even if nobody guessed all three letters correctly, so I then made an analysis of the results using his system:

Quote
In all we had 21 guesses from 12 people. [...]

Now, among the 26 cubed (17,576) ways of guessing 3 letters against a target combination, we have the following (where "x^y" means x to the power of y, and where the binomial coefficients 1,3,3,1 appear in the last column)

1 way of getting 3 matches (that is, 25^0 times 1)
75 ways of getting 2 matches (that is, 25^1 times 3)
1875 ways of getting 1 match (that is, 25^2 times 3)
15,625 ways of getting 0 matches (that is, 25^3 times 1)

(which, as a check, add up to 17,576)

giving the following probabilities (assuming random guesses against a randomly chosen target)

.000057 chance of 3 matches (1 in 17,576)
.004267 chance of 2 matches (about 1 in 234)
.106680 chance of 1 match (about 1 in 9)
.888996 chance of 0 matches

and which, using your current scoring method, leads to an expected score for each guess of around 5.67, and an expected aggregate score for the 21 guesses of around 119.

[...]

Scoring the overall experiment by adding up the individual scores as you suggest (and which presumably is the proper thing to do, since that is what the participants were advised of at the time) gives a score of 733 [...]

So we can ask: what is the probability of the card experiment yielding a score of 733 or more, using your scoring method?

where we define "experiment" as being a sequence of 21 random guesses (we have to fix the number of guesses since, the expected outcome being positive, the more guesses allowed, the greater the expected score.)

The easiest thing to do now is simulate the experiment (that is, run a large number of trials, each trial consisting of 21 random guesses, adding up the score for each trial, and seeing how many trials yield a score of 733 or more.)

Doing this indicates the probablity of the card experiment coming out as well as it did as .0347 (1 in 29).

(As a check, this simulation also confirms the expected score for each guess as 5.67)

[... But] perhaps we could re-consider the method of scoring.

For example: a psi enthusiast would complain that your scoring method does not give enough credit to Ghost Dog for getting hits in both guesses (two hits in one guess and one hit in the other).

The probability of 2 or more hits in a single guess is about 1 in 234 (see above) but the probability of 3 or more hits distributed over two guesses is a much more impressive 1 in 959.

Lifting his score from 675 to 700 does not reflect this adequately.

At the time I did not follow up on this suggestion, because I felt that the results already on the table were impressive enough.

Now I think I should have been more ruthless, because the preceding calculations seriously underestimate the weirdness of the outcome of the experiment.

Interestingly, one person (who now posts at the Hat) made a rather extraordinary intervention.  The thread, as described thus far, petered out on October 24th 2004.  Six months later, Elmar Ata added 3 consecutive posts to the thread as follows:

Quote from: Elmar Ata, April 26th 2005
Out of prison.... near the edge and ....

...opportunity for the dog to become .....should I say honest ?

Quote from: Elmar Ata, April 27th
Opportunity again...

Corey Donovan wrote (in this thread) :

"Here's the email I received from Tungsen when this experiment began:

Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 18:01:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: "leamon hill" <[email protected]> View Contact Details
Subject: Re: fun stuff
To: "Richard Jennings" <[email protected]>

Yes, thank you...Richard........ah.Corey.

You are Officially The Keeper of the Secret Answers which are..... R D S

They have to guess the letters for the grand prize. Emilio is giving points for each correct letter guessed so it's fun.

It will definetly go on through Thursday and if need be a round two for up to 7 days.

You'll just need to verify this email thread when the time comes. no rush.

Thanks,

Leamon "

Me:

Tungstenwhite (Leamon) is a liar. There were no secret answers . THe dog did know at least two letters.

Quote from: Elmar Ata, April 28th
Did he guess or did he know

he did know .......and you should tell us how

where is Tungstenwhite when he can be honest....??

laughing....

or the functions of paranoia.

I don't know if Elmar had made a calculation or if he just felt it intuitively, but he was basically saying that what had apparently happened in the card experiment was simply not believable.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 26 July 2015 10:18:27 PM
hello,

Quote
dam.
[=blood, in Hebrew)or dome?
doom?
Dam.
Damm?

in an formal round would this be allowed, would dam be considered the guess or blood. blood is an word on the cover of the book.
maybe your mind got caught in an loop over dam, taking you to damnation ally as you got a word correct but didnt know.

the coin thing seemed more like remote viewing attempt. the card thing seemed very clinical.
i dont know all the facts about the sr experiments, so i cant judge. but with our nice small group here i feel the guessing rounds have been an bit more relaxed
or organic. odd things here, sync there, an bit more personal. i like how it worked out.

Quote
i hold back an impulse to delete it for fear to feel very stupid if non of it connected to anything
that is something we dont want in guessing rounds. fear of failure or looking silly would only hinder guesses or report i think.

the scoring system and having a winner seems a bit odd. trying to communicate in an weird way is not an competition.
is the elmar ata quotes the dreaming together remark, as in suggesting collusion. i dont understand.

it also is both interesting and strange that people have been at this since 2004. castanet is an very weird place.

mr x.

ps. mr g i am looking forward to you being around again. wether you think you are good company or not.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 26 July 2015 11:00:17 PM
We will get to the dreaming together remark, it is something that happened near the end of the card experiment.  The eagle eyed reader will have noticed that I put a more precise timestamp on the quote from Tungsten at the end of the card experiment, this is in order to prepare the ground.

But let us continue enjoying the orderliness which comes from doing things in the right order, and the next thing to do is to make a better analysis of the card experiment.

The tl;dr version of this post is that if we analyse the experiment properly, the unlikeliness of the outcome turns out to be something like 1 in 80, instead of the 1 in 29 which I settled for previously.

Let us analyse it from first principles, like we did for the coin experiment.

We had 21 entries from 12 people where:

* the winner Ghost Dog made two successful entries, one with 2 matches out of 3 and the other with 1 match out of 3;

* the two runners-up Greg and TKid each made one successful entry, with 1 match out of 3, as well as some unsuccessful entries.

The first point to make, I think, is that the achievements of the runners-up do not contribute materially to the unlikeliness of the final outcome, because it is well in line with expectation that there should have been a handful of successful entries at the 1-match-out-of-3 level.

A back-of-the-envelope way of seeing this is to say that, altogether, the community made 63 (that is, 21 times 3) guesses at alphabetic letters, each of which (ignoring edge-effects arising from it being known that nobody had yet won the contest) independently had a 1-in-26 chance of success.  So, out of the 63 guesses, one would expect that around 2 or 3 would have been correct;  even 4 or 5 correct guesses would have been by no means out of line.

The notable thing in this experiment was Ghost Dog's performance, so we need to find a way of putting a number on that and then asking what is the probability of 1 or more out 12 people doing that well or better by chance.

Ghost Dog made, altogether, 6 (that is, 2 times 3) guesses at alphabetic letters, of which 3 were correct and 3 incorrect.  Again ignoring edge effects (in that when he made his second set of three guesses, he knew that his first set of three guesses was not completely correct) we can calculate the probabilities as follows:

Among the 26-to-the-power-of-6 (i.e. 308,915,776) ways of guessing 6 letters against a target combination, we have the following (where "x^y" means x to the power of y, and where the binomial coefficients 1,6,15,20,15,6,1 appear in the last column)

1 way of getting 6 matches (that is, 25^0 times 1)
150 ways of getting 5 matches (that is, 25^1 times 6)
9,375 ways of getting 4 matches (that is, 25^2 times 15)
312,500 ways of getting 3 matches (that is, 25^3 times 20)
5,859,375 ways of getting 2 matches (that is, 25^4 times 15)
58,593,750 ways of getting 1 match (that is, 25^5 times 6)
244,140,625 ways of getting 0 matches (that is, 25^6 times 1)

(which, as a check, adds up to the total number of ways of choosing the 6 numbers, which is 308,915,776)

giving the following probabilities (assuming random guesses against randomly chosen targets, and expressed here for readability in terms of chances)

chance of 6 matches: 1 in 308,915,776
chance of 5 matches: 1 in 2,059,438
chance of 4 matches: 1 in 32,951
chance of 3 matches: 1 in 988
chance of 2 matches: 1 in 53
chance of 1 match: 1 in 5
chance of 0 matches: better than evens

or, more relevantly,

chance of 6 matches: 1 in 308,915,776
chance of 5 or more matches: 1 in 2,045,800
chance of 4 or more matches: 1 in 32,429
chance of 3 or more matches: 1 in 959
chance of 2 or more matches: 1 in 50
chance of 1 or more match: 1 in 4
chance of 0 or more matches: certainty

which gives a chance of 1 in 959 that a random guesser would have done as well as or better than Ghost Dog.

But that figure by itself does not mean that anything unlikely happened in the experiment, because the unlikeliness depends on the total number of participants.  If there had been several hundred participants, guessing randomly, then it would have been quite likely that one or more of them would have done better than Ghost Dog;  if there had been several thousand participants, then it would have been almost certain.

The question is, with 12 participants, how likely is it that anyone would have done as well as or better than Ghost Dog.

Here, to make the analysis more tractable, it helps to make a simplification.  Following the principle established in our analysis of the coin experiment, and approved by Mr X in post #165, let us make a conservative simplification.  That is, whatever we change, we need to change it in such a way that whatever measure of unlikelihood we eventually come up with for our simplified system, the unlikelihood of what actually happened is greater.

So let us suppose that each of the 12 participants made exactly two entries, just like Ghost Dog did.  In actual fact, some of the participants made only 1 entry and some made 3 entries, for a total of 21 entries;  but we are going to suppose that each made 2 entries, for a total of 24 entries.  Making this change makes it easier for someone at random to do as well as Ghost Dog did, because we are increasing the total number of entries from 21 to 24, thus decreasing the unlikeliness of attaining the result which was actually obtained.

That makes the final step simple.  What is the probability of all 12 participants doing worse than Ghost Dog did?  The answer is (958/959) to the power of 12, which is .98755848

Thus the probability of one or more participants doing as well as or better than Ghost Dog is .01244152, which is a chance of 1 in 80.

Summary: the chance of the coin experiment coming out as well as it did, assuming random guessing, is 1 in 33, and the card experiment coming out as well as it did, assuming random guessing, is 1 in 80.

Combining the two calculations, the chance of SR's first two forum-wide experiments coming out as well as they did, assuming random guessing, is one in a couple of thousand.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 27 July 2015 07:40:00 AM
So all that was to set the scene and establish that the thing in the card experiment which blew it out of the sweet spot was Ghost Dog's performance.

Now, here is something which nobody noticed at the time when it happened, I only noticed it later when I was pulling together posts in order to make the analyses.

SR was a very busy place in those days and there were always several conversations going on in parallel.

On October 18th, which was the day on the afternoon of which Tungsten revealed the result of the card experiment, there was another conversation in another thread going on in the morning.  Here is a post from that thread, and I've added bold to one sentence of it:

Quote from: Ghost Dog,  Monday October 18th 2004, 9:41 am
Re: James Randi at Caltech

Well firstly...

Of course the issue isn't that folks can't have similar dreams...
Why would that be a question? Let's see...why would self proclaimed magi fake magic...hmmm... if you've ever read much of this forum, that shouldn't be a question either.

Secondly.. I've talked about bumblebee turbulence several times... the main difference being that flying bumblebees are a common experience.

...the observation that technically they couldn't fly, was told to show science's incomplete understanding of flight... not to say they couldn't do it.

.... So if I'm reading you right, you're suggesting there is some yet unknown mechanism by which two people could share an objective dreaming environment. okay.

At this point, that's a religious belief, and you're welcome to it.

I have also commented on how Newtonian physics was once considered evidence for the "Young Earth" theory.

...and how science has been shrinking the realm of the mystical as a general trend, which will no doubt, continue into the future.

..... and that unknown areas in science are not "black boxes" where anything can happen.

So... just looking at these Golden Dawn guys...( btw... did you know there is a GD temple at the end of Branciforte there in Santa Cruz? Just learned of it myself... a woman named Joanna advertises Tarot classes, and claims a charter to initiate to the 3=10 Theoricus level)

Anyhow, anecdotes flow from them guys like political ads in October. Crowley supposedly tried to kill Mathers by possessing his hunting dogs, or the other way around, I forget, and generally.... I dunno... it's nothing to write home about...

There may be reasons to think that people can share a dreaming arena....

But those reasons aren't common experience or sense.

Even though we don't understand all the rules that comprise the universe... you can bet they're there and in effect.

Science does a good job of quantifying odd seldom seen phenomena... my favorite citation to that effect is ball lightening... very few people have ever seen it, but it's pretty much understood.

I cite that stuff to counter the argument that PSI phenomenon is too rare and unlabratorial (yeah, I know that's not a word) to be explored by science. Novas are rare and generally unseen too, same with meteorites.. but folks have figured that stuff out.

If there's something to the idea that people can dream together, there's gonna be some sign of it.

... I mean besides anecdotes, which you got to understand are just flying elephants.

... What's lacking is a falsifiable hypothesis.

Which btw, is exactly the problem with Bigfoot.... among other things.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 27 July 2015 08:46:30 AM
"in an formal round would this be allowed, would dam be considered the guess or blood. blood is an word on the cover of the book.
maybe your mind got caught in an loop over dam, taking you to damnation ally as you got a word correct but didnt know."

Yes it absolutely would be allowed.

Quote from: Z at SR, Thursday November 18th 2004
My native language is Hebrew.

So look at this,

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/dam1.jpg)

The very first word posted in the forum, after your post, was dam, which in the native language of the poster means blood

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/dam2.jpg)

If blood is indeed a word on the cover of your book, then that is, frankly, totally amazing.  Please can we have a photo as you mentioned?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 27 July 2015 07:25:02 PM
hello mr j,

it will take an few read overs to digest the sr rounds summary. (i think my first question will be requesting more definition on edge effects)

the word blood is indeed on the cover of the book that is touching my computer. it is such an minor word of those available that i at first didnt notice z had guessed it.

it seems to early to post the photo. if i was were an observer, i would note that the word "bleed" was used in the same post that offered the book with the red spine. that could be considered suggestion. it was not intentional however. my camera is right next to the book.

it would seem like an waste to reveal all possible words now. even though this is informal so there is no rules or limited amount of guesses. an guess from you, an guess from g and hopefully an guess from tosk and merlin would be really nice. for fun.

i dont really want to give any clues so that you cant google-fu the answer. ms z did pretty well.

dreaming together is something i really did generally forget about. i cant remember the last time i thought about that before you mentioned it. there is something similar i have thought about recently, as it sort of seemed relevant to our discussion.

in the casta system, for "dreamers" there is all sorts of weird ideas and things, dreaming together is one of them. the casta system is divided up by dreamers and stalkers. what is the stalker equivalent of dreaming together according to casta ?

it is remembering other peoples memories.

mr x.

ps.
for novelty, as an sample of the music i was listening to when typing the post with the book,

ppss.
speaking of dreams, is there anyone here who as never been addicted to nicotine ? i would like to run an simple casual test regarding that.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 28 July 2015 03:22:56 AM
hello mr j,

in the casta system, for "dreamers" there is all sorts of weird ideas and things, dreaming together is one of them. the casta system is divided up by dreamers and stalkers. what is the stalker equivalent of dreaming together according to casta ?

it is remembering other peoples memories.

not posting together in a forum?  ;D

saw the "bleeding" - AFTER posting my guess.

you did it again! with the gogle fu... but no need for googlr fu, if Hebrew translation is valid!

it's a bit complicated, since this time it's

1. a translation of a whole praze - where the order of the words is dfferent in Hebrew and English, thus difficult to say the translaton of which of the words i suplied.

2. the original, as well as the translation, is jibberish - so the mission of telling which Herew jibberish word is the translation of which English giberish word... well, i have to try, and (as usual) i'm way too tired. it's 6:06 in the morning, i had another under the bridge mission tonight... anyway - MCHAR_CACH. (baby meitar's version of "achar-cach" - later; "machar=tomorrow.)
can i say which English word?
no - not without sing the googlr fu to find those lyrics.

can i say which Hebrew word?
its 2 words- סבסו, מקדו i can't even tell how i know it's about spinning, rotating - which is dominant in the image i posted, at least this is what made me see it and post it.
this time your hint (google fu) did make me think "ah, so i have to google for the original poem."
Machar-cach hopefully.
zeh hayom - it's today.
but not sure i'll make it today.)
and the other book?
did i see anything from reality?

yes, wait for more guesses before posting the pic.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 28 July 2015 01:04:04 PM
" the casta system is divided up by dreamers and stalkers. "

Well, 'stalking' in the sense you are referring to does not occur until The Second Ring of Power.  There is no hint of it in the earlier books.  To me, this means that it is of questionable authenticity.

While I was looking through those posts about the SR experiments I found a post from me which explains what I think about all this, so I'd like to quote it here:

Quote
Just because I say "I think Castaneda invented a very great deal.  Whole books even," now you're going around saying "you keep saying you don't believe this stuff"!  It seems you can only handle extremes.

So let us try again:

(1) I think it probable that Castaneda met one or more native informants who were masters of unordinary awareness and set him on a path towards engaging with unordinary realities

(2) He was discombobulated by his experience and tried to make sense of it in libraries

(3) To get a PhD he wrote three rather good books which probably involved compromises

(4) After that, he tried a variety of different approaches.  As he said in the Time interview (1973) "Now I'm at the edge, and I have to change my whole format. Writing to get my Ph.D. was my accomplishment, my sorcery, and now I am at the apex of a cycle that includes the notoriety. But this is the last thing I will ever write about don Juan. Now I am going to be a sorcerer for sure. Only my death could stop that."

(5) Some of what he did in the 1970s and 80s strikes me as very good.  I call it Mission Schenectady.  Some of it strikes me as fantastical, even phantasmagoric.  I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying.

(6) As for the 1990s ... I'm dubious about those night schools, sunday schools, seminars etc but as I don't know anyone who went to any (except for one person who reported that it wasn't what he was looking for and went to Brazil instead) I haven't made my mind up as to whether they were a noble misguided attempt or just a scam.  Jokingly I call them the Hollywood version.

P.S. the reference to "Mission Schenectady" is based on

Quote
It isn't exactly easy, you know. It's no cinch putting whole inexplicable worldviews down on paper so that every burgher from Schenectady to Long Beach can understand.
~Margaret Runyan, A Magical Journey with Carlos Castaneda.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 28 July 2015 05:06:04 PM
Some more thoughts,

The logistical problems of running a round which was cancelled before it started led to some bugs.

So it is nice in that the latest round these bugs are either cancelled or turned into features.

Bug 1: in Round B Mr G hadn't actually chosen a word, perhaps he hadn't even opened the book, in which case there are really only the words on the outside of the book to choose from, and it's not clear which.  In Round C the rules explicitly said that any word on the cover would do.

Bug 2: in Round B, Mr X's offering of Xhosa was not formally couched as a guess, it just somehow occurred.  Well it's hard to see how it could have been done better, since there wasn't even anything to guess at that stage, but it's still a worrisome blemish.  So it is nice to see how confidently and strongly Ms Z announced her guess in Round C.

Bug 3: for Round B the question which Mr X asked was, what happens if the book is in a foreign language.  But the question was not really answered, since xhosa could be counted as an English word.  In the official Collins online scrabble dictionary, xhosa is not allowed in scrabble but in the Oxford English Dictionary it is included.

So is xhosa a foreign word or not?  Not really clear, therefore it is nice that in Round C the answer was given in a clearly foreign language.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 28 July 2015 09:35:11 PM
hallo FantasticGents&Miss -

today:
afternoon i woke seeing a text, font not unsimilar to that of this board:

I didn't share behavior loose?

thought - this would be a translaton of the jaberwocky gibberish (or rather - decoding what was encoded in it?)
yes, i didn't state it clear enough, due to being so tired - it was a guess, that the second book i saw was jabberwocky.
but i don't think it is also on X's desk... and i have no clue why i saw it along with the blood including text from the book touching X's computor.
anyway shall i google for the text?

but firstly - in the lyrics of the rap you said you listend to while posting your riddle, X, "dome" is mentioned:
Quote
I’m not a clone to follow a nicely written poem

damm\damnation is mentioned in other word - hell:
Quote

Am I faithful at heart and smart enough to find the right path?
Endure the wrath of a stormy past  or will I be cast?
To a hell
that no one can foretell if it exists
Or do we dwell in the midst of, if so I like Hell
(the book "damnation alley" is about a world polluted radioactively, a condemned criminal  get released if he will drive medicines to soult like city thru the hell of radioactive storm)
also a reference could be interpretted as refering to the voineech manuscript:
Quote
so here I stand
Crossing hands, a man trying to understand
Whose book of plans should I follow if they’re written by hands

now, Jaberwocky (Aharon Amir's translation):

בְעֵת בָשָק וּשְלֵי פַחְזָר, ‘Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
בּאַפְסֵי חָק סָבְסוּ, מָקְדוּ,
Did gyre and gimble  in the wabe:
אוֹ אָז חִלְכֵן הָיָה נִמְזַר, All mimsy were the borogoves,
וּמְתֵי עָרָן כּרְדוּ. And the mome raths outgrabe.

so it's gyre and gimble.

(no dam, damm or dome - but there's a mome, in the last verse:)
Quote
And the mome raths outgrabe.
the text i reckoned was it's translation:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=I+didn%27t+share+behavior+loose%3F
this is the result of googling it along with "books":
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=I+didn%27t+share+behavior+loose%3F (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=I+didn%27t+share+behavior+loose%3F)
does it make any sense to you, Fantastic Gents?

looking again at my sentence - it is in the orrect meter of Jubberwocky!
http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,157165,00.html (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,157165,00.html)

Kennedy Smith met a woman at a bar, invited her back home late at night and apparently had sex with her on the lawn. She says it was rape, and the police believed her story enough to charge him with the crime. Perhaps it was the bruises on her leg; or the instincts of the investigators who found her, panicked and shaking, curled up in the fetal position on a couch; or the lie-detector tests she passed.

On the other side, Smith has adamantly protested that he is a man falsely accused. His friends and family testify to his gentle nature and moral fiber and insist that he could not possibly have committed such a crime. Maybe the truth will come out in court -- but regardless... (http://Kennedy Smith met a woman at a bar, invited her back home late at night and apparently had sex with her on the lawn. She says it was rape, and the police believed her story enough to charge him with the crime. Perhaps it was the bruises on her leg; or the instincts of the investigators who found her, panicked and shaking, curled up in the fetal position on a couch; or the lie-detector tests she passed.

On the other side, Smith has adamantly protested that he is a man falsely accused. His friends and family testify to his gentle nature and moral fiber and insist that he could not possibly have committed such a crime. Maybe the truth will come out in court -- but regardless...)
today continues:
fell sleep
heared a crack- electric - louder then my new muskito's killer, saw (faint vision) old-fasion package of computor pages, big and folded from long ribbon, printed with - binarics? some code anyway.
got up to write it, back to sleep

woke, seeing Hebrew text:
15:57
האם היית רוצה לראות איזה פאב?
=would you like to see some pub?
(tiny - like the address line or search window- and transparent grey)
חששתי להרים יד = i was afraid to raise a hand
???
or is it about that rape case?
anyway "adamant" is what Ghost Dog called himself - quotted here #1
http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=53.0 (http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=53.0)

conclusions?

Quote
dam.
[=blood, in Hebrew)or dome?
doom?
Dam.
Damm?
a book X said - so  concious and subconcious me tried to recieve Xtelepathicly and searched for books in the input.

it included
1.the book with "blood" witin the text on the cover (why don't i see any other words of this text? mabe for being flooded with information that far?)
2. 2 books mentioned in the song you, X, had in the background while writing your invintation for guesses. namely damnation alley and the voineech manuscript.

and why Jabberwocky?

P.S. now, that my misson is more or less completed, i  can tell you my yesterday's waking up vison: a shower floor (nicely rounded with good slope, unlike mine, which still causes the water to flood the whole place) flooded with blood - rotten blood.
P.S.S. x, can you ask The Miss why she wants to choose numbers?
P.P.S.S.S. - another guess, someone else? Jufosito? toskito? aspenito? gito?

edit: of course you are free not to -  it's just that i'm not such a genious comparing to the other fantastics, and it feels so... how whuld have GD put it? NARCICCISTIC to do all this discussion by myself, as if it is all about my person's perpetrations...
on the other hand  freak shaws are my spécialité. leave it to me if you're too shy... no prob.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 29 July 2015 10:07:57 PM
hello,

with the recent flood of posts it is hard to keep up with everything.

ms z,

Quote
not posting together in a forum?  ;D

the art of talking ? google fu was not an hint or clue. it was said in an sentance saying i dont want to give clues. as i dont want mr j to internet sleuth the answer using some method i havent thought about.

the bloodshed tube was also not an clue, just novel that there was blood related videos around the time of posting the book.

ok what else,
Quote
gold on brown text? foreighn language? forein alphabeit? or red? picture? black small text in latin letters?  a frame anyway, text behind it.
i think i'm seeing different books - there is a third, inspired by the voineech manuscript or something to that effect

brown is an strong color on the cover. no gold text, but there is silver text. all english. there is some red. spine and rear cover is red. on the spine there is small black text, the isbn. and the publisher logo is in black.
there is only one book. we can revisit why you thought of more than one book another time.
there is an picture on the cover. when i glance over at it, the most prominent things are the book, the camera next to it, and behind the book there is the side cover of my computer, leaning against the case. in that panel there is an perspex window, or frame. funny that if i look at that window, i can see the reflection of my bookshelf behind me. there is no navajo plate behind that window, just an woefully underused gtx970.

interesting that mr j knows there is an informal round, yet chooses not to guess. what sort of statement is that. aside from blood there is more than 10 more words on the cover that have four or more letters.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 29 July 2015 11:50:36 PM
hello mr j,

about the worrisome blemish. something that i havent mentioned, aside from g switching things from numbers to words so an minor increase in word attention, i think the last overflow word being an word from mr g part of the world would of given me some comfort.

such as i was googling words trying to purge some overflow and anxiety, forum4 and guessing things was the last things on my mind, seeing an word from mr g world would of given me some minor comfort. (as in "maybe this is good") later resulting in xhosa. and i felt like i was going to pass out as it was happening.

it must of been weird for people reading casta as the books were released. going from being an hunter to being and assembly point magician.
interesting how late into it he introduced stalking.

if he had never introduced it, things would of turned out very differently. while i am not an castanet expert, i suspect the concept of stalking shaped castanet very much. lots of people thinking they are master mind manipulators resulting in generally fucked up human interactions.

stalking is also very popular amoungst casta spin offs. people like eagle feather or mares who belief in casta, love stalking, made it integral to their systems.

i will have to get back to you about what i think about all of that. imagine casta books are an system. some good parts some bad. because the system is incoherent and parts are designed for one person, the only way to present the system coherently for general consumption would be to extract concepts and arrange them in and understandably way.

given the task of extracting the good and leaving behind the bad, what concepts would you extract from the casta system ?

there might be an need for an separate thread to answer that.

mr x.

ps.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 30 July 2015 01:50:24 PM
yesterday
i  wished to wake next with some more text from x's book
actually i got some text when i layed down during the day, (awake?) but it vanished from my memory before it occured to me that this might be it. it seemed kind of nonsencial anyway.

Quote
google fu was not an hint or clue.
yet you un-hint heleped me reckon that with  such eminenant text as the jubberwocky poem, google can easily display many truthes with 4 corners - i mean many books with "jabberwokcky" in the seach term.
here is one:
this
this is incomplete version? but look at them pics!

Quote
"To 'gyre' is to go round and round like a gyroscope. To 'gimble' is to make holes like a gimlet."

at the blog were i found this,
http://briansibleysblog.blogspot.co.il/2011/01/o-frabjous-day.html (http://briansibleysblog.blogspot.co.il/2011/01/o-frabjous-day.html)
i also found a pub remark:

Quote
Eric Noble:
...The Christopher Lee reading of Jabberwocky is inspiring. He could make the phone interesting to listen to.
...
Brian Sibley:
Regarding your comment that Christopher Lee "could make the phone [book] interesting to listen to": when writing my biography of Peter Jackson, I was sitting in a pub one day when I had a memorable phone call from Mr L that lasted best part of an hour (until the battery was almost dead and buried!) during which – among other things – he sang me his cut performance from Tim Burton's film of Sweeney Todd! I love him!
Quote
imagine casta books are an system. some good parts some bad. because the system is incoherent and parts are designed for one person,
who? you?
not me? (and joke)
Quote
given the task of extracting the good and leaving behind the bad, what concepts would you extract from the casta system ?
hmm... some demanding tasks you have...
i wo'nt re-read all 12 books - but all these years i reccoment people "journey to Ixtlan" as a guide book how to become a warrior - it's list of chapters is basically the good parts.

Quote
Z:
X:the bloodshed tube was also not an clue, just novel
Quote
a book X said - so  concious and subconcious me tried to recieve Xtelepathicly and searched for books in the input.

it included
1.the book with "blood" witin the text on the cover (why don't i see any other words of this text? mabe for being flooded with information that far?)
2. 2 books mentioned in the song you, X, had in the background while writing your invintation for guesses. namely damnation alley and the voineech manuscript.

and why Jabberwocky?
well - answered above - there are many search results with Jabberwocky searchwords.

as for the voineech - oops!
Quote
so here I stand
Crossing hands, a man trying to understand
Whose book of plans should I follow if they’re written by hands
- i mis-red "books of plans" as "books of plants".
but this happend again with the blog i qwoted above, when "(until the battery was almost dead and buried!)" i red as "until the butterfly..."
)i just let my head drop down - tired - and heared in my mind:
Quote
הוא אבא!
הוא אבא! הוא לא אמא! הוא אבא!""
[/quote] [he is a  dad! he's a dad! he's not a mom, he's a dad!" and woke laughing.
so what with this blood text?
t
Quote
he word blood is indeed on the cover of the book that is touching my computer. it is such an minor word of those available that i at first didnt notice z had guessed it.
this is and very strange - what do you mean by "such a minor word?"
actually i had (yesterday) another vision - so "blood" hand written, in small letters, on the red part of a book cover, tiny and one tone (of color} off the background.
"this would be a majic, a spell!" i thought, got acited, then decided no, i must be mistaken.

no i don't think i was mistaken.
but i doubt strongly that it is on the book which is on your desk. more likely one of the others.
may be this is how the voineech manuscript comes into the scene - someone (guess who?) used it to aflict a spell.

...i'll have to take more care of it. focusing so enthusiasticly on this guessing game gave it time to grow too high again.

(and it is fool moon!)
(yalalyah wants his meal)
(i want to sleep)
P.S. thank you; Ju4o, for the encouragement. i need it.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 30 July 2015 03:48:07 PM
Quote
what do you mean by "such a minor word?"

Maybe the book is a collection of blood curdling ghost stories and Mr X finds curdling a more major word than blood.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 30 July 2015 08:05:51 PM
Quote
what do you mean by "such a minor word?"

Maybe the book is a collection of blood curdling ghost stories and Mr X finds curdling a more major word than blood.
a geuss at last, Jufosito? wow, you are confident! as if sitting in the same room... holding back chuckles at my boasting with details...
well, for all i know, you COULD be in the same room... and unlike ghost dog keeping silent out of  novelty... or simple honesty.
are you?

or otherwise you could be seeing that plannly, in comparism my amature guesses sound... so  sweat summer child...
~
hello mr g,

my activitys yesterday evening was to watch 1x04 eps1.3_da3m0ns.mp4 of mr robot, then read the knuth lecture pdf. i enjoyed both.

knuth pdf was good. the full book is probably really good. i was expecting it to be more complicated than it was.
???
at last  ired it...
BORING!
is it in the name "Knuth"? is it stupidifying?

about 0 interesting content - eccept for few items of gossip, like the embroydered galabia his beloved wife gave him for christmas and academics saying (behind his back) when seeing it "oh, here comes the high priest of computer programming!" (which made him unembroider the cross on the back) - academic politics... lecuring tecniques (=N jokes per lecture)
as for religion...
i'll quote practically ALL he said in 25 pages about god and religion: (and thank you, aspenito, for foreseeing my problem copy-pasting from PDF and warning me to quote accurately nevertheless):

he was asked what he thinks the value of prayer is.
Quote
A: prayer... i should be praying now that someone ask me an easier question! I believe it has great value but I don't know why.
Q: do you have any comments or conclusions regarding the existence or the nature of evil?
A: The question is, for example, why people are killed in wars? I'll be getting to this topic later on, but I don't have any insights that I haven't picked up from other people.
The book of job discusses this problem at length and tries to come to conclusions. And if you look at ten different commentaries… each one says that the conclusion was different. This proves, I think, that this is really a tough problem.
But still there must be something there, and we ought to ponder it. What would the world be like if there was no evil?

...Ask yourself what would you do if you were God and you wanted to deal with people on the earth; how would you present youeself?
X? WTH? your taste is really strange.

P.S. i was smoking, like 30 years ago. what's the deal, x?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 31 July 2015 05:16:44 AM
hello j,

Quote
Maybe the book is a collection of blood curdling ghost stories and Mr X finds curdling a more major word than blood.

is that an guess or did i give something away that let you figure out the book ?

curdling is not an word. it is an collection of horror storys. blood is minor because it is not part of the title / subtitle.

i will post the photo on the weekend. it would be nice to be able to have the image hosted on zeta if possible. (send me an pm if we can do that)
what i recommend is that for anyone reading this, they start guessing words, guessing how many words are on the cover, guess the image on the cover, guess the isbn. do it for your self. you dont have to report it all, but for your own amusement try to guess the words and numbers before the image is posted.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 31 July 2015 08:15:21 AM

One can attach a jpg file to a post using the button below the 'reply' window which says "Attachments and other options"

A small version of the picture appears below the post which people can then click on to see the original, like this:
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 31 July 2015 01:09:32 PM
bravo, jufos, bravo!

(that's the greek praise one should say when facing such performance.)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 31 July 2015 02:39:47 PM
thinking again...
does all this have anything to do with my last night's encounter?

Yalalyah called me excited and impatient about sunset (he tried several times during the day, in vain) i agreed and off we went for his walk.

not a very long one - returning, a she friend of him (and me) showed. happy meeting!

i took them to the playground, to play on the  lawn.
after some happy playing Yalalyah was gone. then his friend also was gone.
i decided i can go back to my lap top.
once i got up she - let's call her miss y - joined me, and Yalalyah reapeared too.

near the playground's entrance i saw a man asleep on the ground. miss y went to him, smelled him.

he was dressed neatly, shorts and a hoodie, had a little bag. he opened his eyes.

"all is right?" i asked with a tone of concern, though i wondered why i do it when so clearly i wouldn't do anything for him, whatever. (previousely in another garden i saw 2 tins sleeping, asked them the same, they answered very thankfully  that all is right. that was an early morning.)
the man opened hid eyes. he was bald or shaved, long scull. swiftly he opened and closed  his mouth several times - this felt sickening - i went away, miss y stayed to smell him more, concerned and\or curious.
soon both dogs joined me.

i recalled a old mail from the aforementioned friend (my telepathy training pal) - saying i should alway suspenct myself to be dreaming awake, and compair my memories with the others present.
started to think - could it possibly be and IB? he had the typical skull and face IBs had in some dreams of mine... and this rapid movement of jaws was  really freaking.
well - if this was a dream, it was hared at least with miss y, though mycommunication with her is sort of limited...

introspecting again...
could he possibly had anything to do with the vampire scene?
and how come?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 01 August 2015 04:15:28 AM
this is book.

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 01 August 2015 01:47:13 PM

A much classier book than what I guessed!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 01 August 2015 08:00:46 PM
lot of vampires and blood here.

i wonder about the handwritten "blood".
x?
j?
T,G,M?
are you aware of anything of the sort?
t
this one rings a bell?
(http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/l400/pict/111498989005_/Ben-Bova-The-Aftermath-Book.jpg)

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 02 August 2015 05:03:44 AM
hello,

so it looks like the immediate guess of dam or blood distracted other guesses.

and those distractions led to vampires. in context, the word blood on the cover of fruiting bodies is in reference to another book by the same author, blood brothers. which is about vampires. and possibly telepathy, i havent read it.

we could consider the word "tales" to be an guess. so what is the summary of that mr j, blood on first guess.

if the were an secret bonus word or thing, if anyone could of telepathically connected to me during this informal thing, the secret word would be doner or falafel.

ms z also mentioned an book of plants. in the image she posted i did note that shape of the column was sort of like the mushroom on the cover.

i was going to mention there was an half naked woman on the cover to suggest it was pulp.

that book has been on my desk or near my desk for weeks. when i was playing along at home with mr g method (trying the encryption method), that was the book i grabbed.

"- and while its gates are locked in all hours of
day; yet, at the witching hour, one who knows -
even one who guesses - may see in it all the shades
and shapes of night and the pit, wearing the visage
of those who saw before."

well that was fun, what next ?

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 02 August 2015 02:08:07 PM
As I suggested in 'serious synchronicities'

Quote
meaningful [synchronicities] tend to come in meteoric showers scintillating and hinting at half-seen connections as though a woven fabric of intent pervades everything.

I wonder what is the meaning of these wonderful synchronicities we've been having in this thread.  I think the meaning which Mr Explanatory Anthropomorphism has been sending us with increasing emphasis is "It's over before it's begun".

The theme of the experiments at SR was the question of whether dreaming together is real, and as we have seen, the question was answered magnificently.

Quote
If there's something to the idea that people can dream together, there's gonna be some sign of it.

There was, by the way, another forum-wide experiment at SR (about three years later, I think in 2007) which also had a serious theme, on the question of collusion (which means 'playing together').

I will look for some details about that as it fits very well into this theme-oriented way of looking at these experiments.

But first I'd like to continue straight on and ask, what is the theme of the experiments in this thread?  Well, can I put it in the nicest possible way and say that this thread seems to be just for fun.  There are no serious skeptics here, we are all kind of OK with the idea of statistical normality being blown out of the water and not being much bothered by it.  So why are we doing this?

Mr EA might well have been asking the exact same question.  All over the world there are presumably groups of people continually asking serious questions about the paranormal, and now along comes this group at f4 and does it for fun.

I would think that the intent of the universe is not going to want to hang around crafting exquisite synchronicities as the experiments proceed.

The best we might hope for in such a case, I suggest, would be if a junior sprite were to condescend to bonk each experiment on the head with a serious synchronicity when it has barely got started, or even before it has got started, then moving swiftly away to more serious arenas elsewhere in the world.

Let us look again at what happened in Round 1.  Previously I gave a very conservative analysis (in the sense described in post #170).  I simply put together all the guesses, and all the targets, and asked how well they match.

But what actually happened is much much more startling.  Here it is in more detail:

(1) initial targets 2-30-30-31, initial guesses 2-12-12-40

Outcome: very first guess of very first round correct!  What more could anyone ask?  Well, the arithmetically curious might go on to observe that all the other guesses were also correct insofar as adding up the digits of each guess against the digits of each corresponding target, but that is really just the icing on the cake, and I ignored it in my previous analysis.

The rational thing to do at this point would have been to declare the experiment and outstanding success and leave it at that.  But no!  The fun-loving Mr G then made another guess, forcing Mr X reluctantly to admit that actually there was another target that he hadn't disclosed the existence of:

(2) fun-loving extra guess 37, hitherto undisclosed extra target 37

Jeepers!  Can we go home now?  ... No!!  Mr G is not a person to be stopped in mid track.  He then went on to make two more guesses, forcing Mr X (who had by now run out of targets) to go back to the target generator and generate another target.

(3) indomitable further guesses 45-14, target that had not even been generated yet 45

Well that takes the biscuit, for utter statistical abnormality.  That should have been enough, or thousands of times more than enough, for any rational person.  Why we went on to have another round is a mystery to me, but we did.  Or at least we tried to.  However, it didn't even get started, as the junior sprite was by now perhaps deciding that it was time to be more inventive.

Quote from: post #71
what is the probability that of the pre emptive dream numbers of g, the "miss x" who was set to pick 3 numbers, picked 2 of those by g. she was very ill when choosing the numbers. which will soon be fixed with antibiotics.

round 2 seems to be broken already.

So did we stop there?

No!

The next round (A, hat) was broken by logical methods before anyone made a guess.

The next round (B, xhosa) was broken before the target had even been selected.

Quote from: Mr G, post #110
Well, I think this will blow the sweet spot clear out of the water.

And then ... ... ... yet another round!  OK, let us look again at Round C.

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/dam3.png)

Broken the moment it got started, by the very next word posted.

Neat reference to the fact that the moniker of the poster is 'translator', hence guess is translated into native language of poster.

A senior sprite would probably refrain from expressing exasperation at the seemingly wilful refusal of the forum to heed its indications that these rounds are being systematically broken, but if a junior sprite were to have muttered a quiet "damn" at this point, and smoehow incorporated it into the guess, it would be quite understandable I think.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 03 August 2015 06:53:03 AM
hello mr j,

that is an very interested summary. some thoughts.

the over before its begun is curious. i have recently been thinking about that in an different context. i was thinking about it as - if all the different casta spin offs and toltec cults gathered together, at an round table, and explained their worth or value to to the toltec system. one by one they say "i am an direct receiver of dr casta" or "i streamlined the systems for general consumption" or "the toltec system is real and i knew about it before casta". there would be one cult that if they sent an delegate at all would say "we won before you started".
that is just an rough description of those thoughts. some things linking, it may sound outlandish, and i am not saying the two things are related.

Quote
Well, can I put it in the nicest possible way and say that this thread seems to be just for fun.  There are no serious skeptics here, we are all kind of OK with the idea of statistical normality being blown out of the water and not being much bothered by it.  So why are we doing this?

i dont mind if you put it the least nice terms. but nice is good. i do consider myself skeptical, very, i would prefer to not belief in anything than belief in something that isnt real. with things like the blood guess, it is less being ok with it, but having no choice but to go along with it. offer book, instant hit, what am i to think. say xhosa, it is an hit, i dont have to try to belief that happened, and given the info from g i have no choice but to accept it happened.

fun is certainly happening. not taking things to seriously has led us to some interesting results. while i really do want to explore and experience some superpara, and i take that seriously, we can have some fun along the way.

i am not sure why we are doing the experiments, we just sort of are. telepathy came up, one thing led to another.

the preternatural sprites and such, it makes me want to know more about each of you. more to say but cant word it.

mr x.

ps.
serious sync thread should possibly be revived. i would like to here more sync stories without them needing to be in context of this thread. in this thread i was coming close to an explanation of syncs that described them as completely normal and not weird. that idea broke generally.

ppss.
the direct quote of miss - wanting more guesses "i want to play".
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 03 August 2015 12:35:41 PM
what next ?

Quote
ppss.
the direct quote of miss - wanting more guesses "i want to play".
ok
there seems to have been a synchronisity that sets the next round some time in advance:

i have very few books at my house, recently rented; eccept ny favorite book, the letters of yoni netanyahu, all found in recycle bins.
yea, books are a chip marchendise these days... (sigh)
anyway - the last picked-up one, which is on my shelf-table (sometimes desk, sometimes eating table, i wish i had a better one, all my improvised ones don't function perfectly, what with my advanced age, i am not as comfortable as i used to be sitting crossed legged on the floor) - i took it for the mere synchronisity to somthing forum4ic.

(besides, not for the first time. the previous recycle books are חברים מספרים על ג'ימי, a memorial book to a warrior (like yoni netanyahu's book) and Bialic's poetry - which i found just after writing a paraphrase of his eminant  אל הציפור ("to the bird" or "greetings, lovely bird") poem on this very forum.
so - ti am not going to read it.
can you guess a word from the name? or all 3 words?
i don't promise a foto, but if i'l mannage (with some help from google) i'll post one.

P.S. jufo, your'e saying - wer'e winning some competition? big time?
what is the prize?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 04 August 2015 07:44:04 AM
hello,

i dont have much time to post so here are some things. you might find the story amusing mr j, and it is true.

z offers some informal book. i read it in the morning, i used to never look at forum4 in the morning until mr g once made me think of it. not another guessing round i thought, still processing the summary of mr j. to get it out of the way, i guessed morning or an m word.

soon after i was on an car ride with miss -, an longer ride than usual. as soon as the car started driving forward, i mentioned (the relevant quote is accurate but my words in this may not be exactly what i said, but close enough)
"so if you want to guess something there is a book that-"
miss - "three! blue!"
"-has three words.."
"(god dammit)"

my thoughts are that we should stop doing guessing rounds in this thread. we should make and seperate section just for that. serious research - no fun zone. threads have to be about specific tests or themes.

another separate section, such as an extra upstairs that is well hidden, might be useful for talking personally. or an encrypted email network.

i want to continue thinking about and replying to the #191 summary but i have to watch true detective with miss - soon.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: âspen on 04 August 2015 10:20:41 AM
Very nice!  And I enjoyed the last line of the dialogue.

When I saw this latest round yesterday, I too thought to myself, "Oh no! Not another!! I wonder how this one will turn out to be over before it's begun".

Well, you'll never guess what has happened this morning.

Prepare to roll on the floor laughing.

Bear in mind that each of the rounds so far has turned out in a different and unexpected way, united only by the theme "It's over as soon as (or even before) it's started".

Bear also in mind that one of the attributes traditionally associated with sprites is a terrific sense of humour.

Now, before looking at the following picture, try to guess what has arrived in the forum admin mailbox this morning.  I'll leave a gap so that you can guess before scrolling down.

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/lilith2.png)

Oh dear!  Tears of laughter rolling down.  What to do?  I invite guidance from the forum.  Ms Z I hope you also are finding this funny.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 04 August 2015 01:07:00 PM
Quote
Ms Z I hope you also are finding this funny.

well...
- just woke. my humour yet not recovered.
got so far 2 passwords working - gmail and forum4 - don't know what still awating me.

when i'll see i can enter more or less the sites i frequent, i might be more into savage laughter.

who knows.

did you deliberately post my full real name, aspenito?

Quote
as soon as the car started driving forward, i mentioned (the relevant quote is accurate but my words in this may not be exactly what i said, but close enough)
"so if you want to guess something there is a book that-"
miss - "three! blue!"
"-has three words.."
"(god dammit)"

well - 3 is indeed the number of words, though was not kept secret by me.
blue...
the cover background is changing from off-white to pale-blue.
(in hebrew blue is כחול while pale blue is תכלת, thus percieved as a seperate color - as pink percieved different from red. so - is it language dependant? how many colors are they in Russian?)

but... maybe miss clap-of-the-one-hand (this is what i come to call "-" - not a number, not even 0...) saw another book that came strongly into my mind just after posting my wee riddle...

i glimpsed into my cupboard where i keep my spare books, and - surprise! i have more books then i remembered!
one is "journey to the southern pole" by edmund hillari  (translated into Hebrew)
the other is the interested, since it gives a blue impression (background - pale blue +title - dark blue +background of patch + one more element.)
since it became kind of traditional in this "game" to refer to and element of and hidden agenda along the "formal informal" one...
i want you to guess one of the 2 icons - the one on the back.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 04 August 2015 06:19:35 PM
yalalyah is absent.

tell you what -
if he is not back and fine very soon, for me it worth the end of the world.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 05 August 2015 06:26:04 AM
yalalyah is back and fine.
end of the world wll have to keep on hold.

Aspen, what is this Arab letters assembly you substituted with the former text? curiouser.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: âspen on 05 August 2015 09:54:37 AM
(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/lilith3.png)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 05 August 2015 01:38:02 PM
Quote
when i'll see i can enter more or less the sites i frequent, i might be more into savage laughter.
- all my logins got un-logged, all my windows got closed. at least my history was not deleted, this time. you would expect it to run faster, very fast, without a zillion open tabs in 4 windows... but it got - and still is - extre-me-ly  s-s-s-l-o-w.

As for rhe result of the last round:
Quote
Aspen: Bear in mind that each of the rounds so far has turned out in a different and unexpected way, united only by the theme "It's over as soon as (or even before) it's started".
but not this round!
as i said on it's opening,
Quote
there seems to have been a synchronicity that sets the next round some time in advance:

i have very few books at my house... all found in recycle bins.
...the last picked-up one... - i took ... for the mere synchronicity to somthing forum4ic.

(besides, not for the first time. ... Bialick's poems - which i found just after writing a paraphrase of his eminent אל הציפור ("to the bird" or "greetings, lovely bird") poem on this very forum.
so: it is well established that the round was chosen at non-linea time, i.e. the time of my finding the books at different recycle bins.

it is also well established (as a legal role for this "game" or whatever you want to call it) that guessing correctly stuff that is surplus to what was asked does count as success (like my guessing the jabberwocky connection and the hand-written "blood" on a hue of a color not far from red background).

now - it is ALSO established that the guesser's dependance of perception on his\her native language counts
Quote
"in an formal round would this be allowed, would dam be considered the guess or blood. blood is an word on the cover of the book. …"

Yes it absolutely would be allowed.

Quote from: Z at SR, Thursday November 18th 2004
My native language is Hebrew.

So look at this,

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/dam1.jpg)

The very first word posted in the forum, after your post, was dam, which in the native language of the poster means blood

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/dam2.jpg)

Now:
In answer to the new round's question
Quote
can you guess a word from the name? or all 3 words?

mis -, accordint to X, said:

miss - "three! blue!"
"-has three words.."
"(god dammit)"

BUT (there IS a butt, yes)
- in and early [=BEFORE it was asked] answer to Xs question
1. the number of words was mentioned in the QUESTION – thus   guessing it is… well, nice guess, but out of the game.

2. providing the color IS a legitimate issue, though never askes about…
Here again there are 2 sub-clauses
a.      Quote myself
Quote
(in hebrew blue is כחול while pale blue is תכלת, thus percieved as a seperate color - as pink percieved different from red. so – is it language dependant? how many colors are they in Russian?)[/]
(providing my guess about miss-'s native language is accurate.)
b.       My reply to miss- was
Quote
blue...
the cover background is changing from off-white to pale-blue.
alas, I was wrong!
apologize!

googling for the color i discovered - it is not called "pale blue' but "turquoise".
like this (color)(http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v4/569102905_1/SER2066-Hot-Sale-Big-font-b-Earring-b-font-Turquoise-Blue-Beige-Orange-font-b-Gold.jpg)
{the outer ring of stones - would you call it "pale blue"? no! it's turquoise! For comparison, the inner ring IS pale blue.}
my mistake!

so - if at first i thought: even if guessing stuff one (hand) was not asked about[=the color of the book's wrap] is taken for legitimate (i did it too, but not INSTEAD of what was asked - but IN ADDITION)
- researching for the color (google and suchlike) i discovered: no! it's not pale blue! it's pale turquoise! thus miss-'s answer is wrong anyway...

but... maybe miss clap-of-the-one-hand (this is what i come to translate "-" – into - not a number, not even 0...) saw another book that came strongly into my mind just after posting my wee riddle... as I saw several in my own guessing…

Quote
i glimpsed into my cupboard where i keep my spare books, and - … the interested [one], since it gives a blue impression (background - pale blue +title - dark blue +background of patch + one more element.)
since it became kind of traditional in this "game" to refer to and element of and hidden agenda along the "formal informal" one...
i want you to guess one of the 2 icons - the one on the back.
So – from non-linea time I chose 2 books for guessing, and MisOneClap saw – or if you prefer, guessed - the other, which CAN be called "blue!"
Quote
it gives a blue impression (background - pale blue +title - dark blue +background of patch + one more element.)

Quote
aspen:Oh dear!  Tears of laughter rolling down.  What to do?  I invite guidance from the forum.
what kind of guidance you need, aspenito? the kind one can't phathom without some nerdish disposition? (I spend the day trying to post, than trying to email you that i can't post and  postponing the "game" until it is settled) a joke to laugh to? a quesion to dance on? or what?
and what's now?

P.S. X: which car would better describe the one you travel in with miss ClapOneHand?

i delet the address of that pic – it's   26 pages, maybe without it I'll be able to send the mail (which so far I couldn't)
I have it in the doc. (couldn’t sent it… copied to another doc )
Hmm.. no button to attach the pic I printscreened… maybe I can copy-past it from the word doc. Here is the stills I printscreened:

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 05 August 2015 02:13:39 PM
(i have to split it into at least 2 - too many tags)

Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 05 August 2015 03:04:16 PM
ok, i'm bored - copied it all into doc.
made some random little changs out of sheer botrdom.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 05 August 2015 03:15:27 PM
gents - should we announce the "game" cancelled for all the chitting?
i'm not sure, we might win more from winning. and we are.

so:
is the round over? (with "blue" only for and correct answer... which is a border case... but let her win one round.)
shall i try posting the books covers?
or do someone wants still to guess the other book's name?
edit: damm - i forgot that i asked ypu to guess the image on the back cover as welll... you know what? the one on the front is also acceptable.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: ju4o on 05 August 2015 04:23:48 PM

Congratulations to Mr X and Ms Y for managing to slip in a guess just before the cut off.

Ms Y did not know that the book had three words on it when she exclaimed "three! blue!"

(http://zeta.forum4.org/pix/il.png)
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 05 August 2015 10:00:30 PM
what?

anyway - here is the book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pFWM45nfL._SX327_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

the other book:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418KZD231DL._SX319_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
i don't find it's back cover  - the image though is the left-most infinity symbol enlarged and slightly diagonal.

notice that the patch on the front cover  introduce some colors code.
blue=healthy=rich.

now mis why is entitled to meet at night...  what -  butterflies?
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 06 August 2015 08:53:46 AM
      `
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 06 August 2015 12:57:51 PM
hello,

yes i agree that the round ended as soon as possible. for starters there was more than 3 words on the cover of that book. that is the last guessing round to happen in this thread, any other attempts will be moved.

Quote
P.S. jufo, your'e saying - wer'e winning some competition? big time?
what is the prize?

i think the very nice summary in #191 is saying something different.

1. we are all either incredibly psychic or incredibly amazingly lucky to the point of probability not mattering or
2. some outside force has been influencing the results of our rounds and guesses.

in this most recent thing, i dont think miss - guessed anything. it happened almost instantly. an instant and cheekily enthusiastic response, followed by giggling. she didnt have time to process the guess.
as details of the car is personal information it would be inappropriate to give the information, but the song playing on the radio in the car was
notice an certain key word early in the song. i strongly suspect that is where blue came from but i really dont know.

mr j,

i think it was not that i was refusing to see the rounds being broken, but i was looking for the explanation being in the people involved. around the time mr g was thinking i might be an hacker, i was thinking he might have some raw psychicness or he was an hacker. it is actually quite difficult to switch out of the mindset that it was us doing all this. but something else being involved is what we were looking for, so pretty cool.

i quite like your summary. for now i am ok with that being the current explanation. i would really like to see what the others think about that.

i have to ask, why miss y ? i ask for an odd reason of course.

two things i would like to keep exploring from recent discussions is 1, mental states especially mania, 2 the external force mentioned in #191.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 07 August 2015 02:47:34 PM
Quote
X: yes i agree that the round ended as soon as possible
???
Quote
for starters there was more than 3 words on the cover of that book.
sure; never said there were only 3.
Quote
can you guess a word from the name? or all 3 words?
see?
the name is "The Surplus People".
can misss- count that far?

Quote
X: that is the last guessing round to happen in this thread, any other attempts will be moved.

who's decision?
or as humpty dumpty put it:
who is the boss?

does this identify you, X, as the mysterious changr of posters' sub-titles? (mine and yours - but you said someone else called you "unpinged"... which does not necessarily means you didn't do the admin job.) (i was promoted to moderator - for the short time this was done; than i was demoted.) (anyway we know you banned me the first time i registered to forum4 - "by mistake" - which makes you a suspect...)

Quote
some outside force has been influencing the results of our rounds and guesses.
duh
but this can't set humpt-dumpty together again
never again!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: tally-ho! on 07 August 2015 02:58:53 PM
Quote
in this most recent thing,
what? the number of words on the cover?

Quote
i dont think miss - guessed anything.
o yes she did.  instantly or not,  cheekily or respectfully,  enthusiastic  or adequately somber response, followed by giggling or by sheer puke, wheather she  had time to process the guess or just acted as her usual genius self - she guessed all right!
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 09 August 2015 07:20:34 AM
hello z,

Quote
for starters there was more than 3 words on the cover of that book.
Quote
sure; never said there were only 3.
Quote
can you guess a word from the name? or all 3 words?

okay, i am not suprised that i might have misunderstood you or thought you were suggesting there were only 3 words.

Quote
like in the game, a paraphraze on "who knows 20"

you mean 20 questions, a guessing game ? not going to happen in this thread, and to be honest i have absolutely no idea what you are talking about with that google pic and question with it.

general supernatural exploration is not about guessing games, it has been, but its over now.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 10 August 2015 07:58:16 AM
Quote
that is the last guessing round to happen in this thread, any other attempts will be moved.

3 posts have been removed from this thread due to someone not understanding or not respecting that the guessing rounds are over. those posts can be viewed here
http://www.forum4.org/index.php?topic=55.0

it does not mean there will never be rounds again on forum4, but for now they are over. any more are completely unnecessary and an distraction. we have more than enough to analyze and consider.

mr x.
Title: Re: general supernatural exploration
Post by: Mr X on 10 August 2015 10:07:00 AM
hello,

this is the end of part 1.

if i recall correctly, this thread started because mr g and mr x wanted to discuss and explore the supernatural as forum4 was our only option for doing so.

we spent a lot of time on telepathy, syncs and guessing, and possibly caught the attention of something that was not us.

after over 200 posts the thread is getting too big. at 400 posts it would be an chore looking through earlier discussions for an quote.

so part 1 is locked. part 2 will continue on from here.

mr x.