Author Topic: general supernatural exploration - part 1  (Read 172901 times)

tally-ho!

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #150 on: 09 July 2015 08:10:28 PM »
 
Quote
just because an system is functional, does not mean it is good or you should use it.
Of course – choose from whatever exists or make your own - but if you find a functional one (again: not generalized "shamanism", and better call it by it's native name, whatever) – why not try it?
And what if you find one that you LOVE?

 
Quote
one criticism of the shaman system i have is - any system using intoxication/ rituals/ spirits has an problem with state dependent memory. 
I agree about intoxication. What about united state memory?
Rituals, like shamanic paths, are multiple phenomena. Some are designed to overwhelm, knock out so to speak, attendants into signing in to an agreement, others are a validation, a signature on contract [decleration of intent] (between one and others/ oneself). 
Can be performed as a dramatic show or succinctly declaring intent.
Valid by magical law that is mostly null in our districts – yet unbreakable in proper use.
 
Quote
i cant really explain, just it seems being consistent calm and smooth as you build knowledge of the superparapreter is and good quality in the long run, different than massive bursts of perception that only happen under certain conditions.
Good luck with the superparapreter – personally I wouldn't touch it with a 3 meters long keisaku.
But, again, it's a matter of personal taste (or is it?)
(is it your taste anyway?)
 
Quote
"Always separate the man from the teacher."
Seems to be conflicting to what I told G…
Actually all I said – a teacher has no veto right concerning the agreement between teacher and student.
But there is more to it:
The way creatures – at least mammals – learn from their parent is – internalizing everything one's parents (or a parent figures) do.
(this is just the reason why it is so difficult to avoid repeating your parent's example, even when you hate it; particularly once you become a parent.  you can tell yourself thousand times what your parents did was wrong, yet find yourself doing just the same… aha.)
This is biology – nature's design. To enable one to act instinctively – fast, with no internal conflicts.
 Teachers are parent figures.  Thus it is hard to shake whatever your teacher did wrong – particularly about his teaching subject, but not only.
Ever  after the closing of the tamahtufah,  giving a perfect – at least impeccable – personal example dropped from the list of requirements for teaching.
Aha.
So we are stuck with pedophile priests and womanizing "naguals" both demanding from others celibacy, drunken zen masters, and un-cool collage electronic teachers… none of which obliged to be perfect, impeccable or even "cool". 
While electronics  (if I'm not too ignorant to form an opinion) or, say, architecture  you can manage to teach without being a thorough personal example, this is not the case in, say, Don Juan's teachings (magic?) – when the teaching includes a total change of behavior and being.
As debunkers rightfully claim, you can't require celibacy yet tempt female students; Or be a priest and seduce church choir boys.
To teach stuff like impeccability, re-arranging all one's energy, deleting personal history, or – let me find some examples from my own teaching (which might also fit into the inaccurate term "shamanism") moving neutrally, with no superfluous tension in the body – you can't if you can't present a personal example.
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So I did laugh for 5 minutes.
But was it god?
What is god?
whose god?
God who?
-   Ok, I'm convinced.
-   You were typing to me when you did.
-   I can read it.
-   Sometimes laugh.
-   But who are you?
P.S. did I ever tell you how Charlie virtually slapped me?
That was totally effective.
Impulses rock.

Quote
There is a strange kind of disconnect between students and some teachers that is really hard to bridge.
it is [imo] the lack of a viable agreement between the 2 parties.
the automatic agreement rendered by the school/institution is distorted most cases - ...TCOTT+all the horror influences added since.the needs of the students are not met - they are forced to learn lot of boring surplous stuff, with is lethal for their motivation, destructive for the diamond head of their focus of attention so to speak, not to mention their yearning to have a parent, at least a brother  figure, who loves them and does his best to give them a perfect personal example. learning is so boring when imposed! pushes studeents to  entertain themselves by sadistically harrsing someone... other student or, better when possible, the teacher   
none of your fault G - though you CAN take responsibillity.
Quote
what is love, or what does love got to do with it ?

In a meat sense (but not meant cynically), I think it's probably hormones that affect certain areas of the brain where certain subsections of the main meatprogram is stored. These subsections include, but is not limited to:

Pair bonding (to facilitate mating and child rearing)
Maternal / Parental bonding (to promote survival of the genes)
Team bonding (probably a hunting thing)
James bonding (a cheap, silly joke)
definition: love is a potential between fields of energy around humans - "luminous eggs" in casta terminology.
i have to go - will elaborate later.
אָהוֹי כַּנְטַלָהּ
בַּרִ^י(כְּ) מָנְטָלַה
טַרֻי וָצַ'קָ[ת]
רַתּוּי מֻ(מ)רַטָּ[ת]
כָּהָר מַרֲטָה
טָרִיק בָּרְבַּרֻ רָטַּטֻהִי
אֲשַּׁתֻּהִי
הוֹי!

~נהפכ נהפכ ונהפכ~

ju4o

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #151 on: 11 July 2015 10:31:21 AM »
Hello Mr G. Have you read "Things a computer scientist rarely talks about"?

In case you haven't read it I've put it at http://zeta.forum4.org/txt/1575863278.pdf (http://zeta.forum4.org/txt/1575863278.pdf)

You already know this of course but for other readers of this thread, Donald Knuth is without any possible doubt the coolest computer programmer that there has ever been.

Bearing in mind that other readers of this thread might not even have heard of him, but that is part of the package.

http://xkcd.com/163/ (http://xkcd.com/163/) (hover over image for explanation)

Mr X

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #152 on: 11 July 2015 12:47:32 PM »
hello mr g,

recognizing an mental anomaly, comparing your experience to whatever you consider to be stable reality, and being skeptical of yourself. that sounds like being careful. being extra careful is also good, and there is such an thing as being too careful.

my question for you - should your experience of feeling the supernatural be discarded entirely because mania may of been the cause ?
when an person experiences mania, is every thought feeling emotion perception and experience invalid under those conditions.
mental states and exploration are so intertwined it is like wondering what was there before the universe.

it is interesting. mental processes such as anxiety and depression are normal common responses for the human mind. but they can become serious problems (such as if they happen for no reason). an interesting thing with how mental states relate to exploration of the weird is that it is and slippery slope rabbit hole (imo). for instance mania can be witnessed in evangelist churches. can we invalidate the experience of those people as being crazy simply because we view the world differently ?

have you ever though about how, if part of ones brain was abnormal, that part of the brain can process information differently, produce views that the "normal" part of the brain cant. if your mental state is changing from one thing to another, is there consistent signs that let you know it is happening. if you can know its happening, maybe you could divert it into an information path of your choosing. or at the very least know to just ride it out everytime. anyway i am happy to hear you are well.

by the way, for all your uncoolness, everytime i am reminded that you are an teacher, i think nothing but being impressed. it seems like and honest and dare i say noble profession (maybe if i could see what goes on in teachers staff rooms i might think differently.) i would not last an day standing infront of an class.
you know, for every jerk student that is trying to be cool, there is another student that is there to listen to you. and they respect you.

mr x.

ps.
this tupe is just in tribute to the only other peice of rough info i could pull from the indaba business.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fNmyPRwPxU

ppss.
j, intersesting.

Mr X

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #153 on: 15 July 2015 12:42:43 PM »
hello j,

Quote
Who gets further?  One answer is, shamans.

But there are 2 big difficulties: shamans tend to live in mountain fastnesses, or in desert vastnesses, or at least they did until recent times, and secondly, the merest contact with a shaman wreaks havoc on the ego of the searcher.

To counter these difficulties needs a strong motivation, and that is where the multistep can help.

as some follow up questions,

what brand or system of shamanism do you like or recommend, aside from sanchez (quotes to reflect the brand would be nice).
if you had to pick one or two non shamanism systems that could lead to paranormal experience what would that be.

im not sure what to do regarding systems at the moment, but interested in having a look at other variations. most likely i will stick to my own system for now.

mr g,
regarding evenness of mood, and as an report of strongly unusual behaviour, on friday i drastically reduced my nicotine intake. unplanned and unexpected. ive only gotten cranky a few times for a few minutes, but wow, what an crisp clean form of stress that is.

i have also been having lots of dreams, most notably nightmares. not and big deal but notable as it is highly unusual and consistent.

mr x

Mr G

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #154 on: 16 July 2015 02:58:25 PM »
Hi, sorry this is just a placeholder post, but I don't want to look like I disappeared.

I've got a few too many things going on to be good company now, and I haven't finished reading J4's posted lecture. But it looks really interesting and I'll get to it soon.

Hi Z, I'll get back to you too. Please continue the conversation, I'll be sure to read it.

X, talking about Fight Club (and thus breaking the first 2 rules of fight club), Den of Geek recently declared Mr Robot the spiritual successor to Fight Club...

http://www.denofgeek.com/tv/mr-robot/36114/why-mr-robot-is-fight-club-s-spiritual-successor

...but I think it flatters to deceive. Reading that might make Palahniuk Chuck a wobbly...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug4fRXGyIak

...but I'll give it a chance. Cheers!

Mr X

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #155 on: 17 July 2015 01:06:09 AM »
hello mr g,

my activitys yesterday evening was to watch 1x04 eps1.3_da3m0ns.mp4 of mr robot, then read the knuth lecture pdf. i enjoyed both.

mr robot pilot ep was out for weeks before the show started airing. it was offically on youtube and is on ice. have been wanting to mention it to you or ask if you have been watching it a few times.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npnTXEgxpuQ
stop reading about it before watching i say, there were some things i didnt notice until i saw some fan theories online, more fun to figure it out as you watch.

knuth pdf was good. the full book is probably really good. i was expecting it to be more complicated than it was.

mr x.

(edit to fix episode name)
« Last Edit: 19 July 2015 04:51:57 AM by Mr X »

ju4o

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #156 on: 22 July 2015 11:30:16 AM »
Quote
if you had to pick one or two non shamanism systems that could lead to paranormal experience what would that be.

Well have we already had a non-shamanic paranormal experience in this thread?

I think we can agree it is non-shamanic, the question is if it is paranormal.

There are interesting parallels between what happened here and what happened in the SR experiments 10 years ago.

Leaving aside for the moment the uncanny weirdnesses which crept in both now and then and which are the really interesting bits I think, lets just look at the numbers to begin with.  Here are some measures of the unlikelinesses of the result of each experiment:

Experiment 1

SR (10 years ago, coin experiment) 1 in 33
F4 (round 1) 1 in 27

Experiment 2

SR (card experiment 1) 1 in 29
F4 (round 2) 1 in 23

Experiment 3

SR (card experiment 2) result within chance expectation
F4 (round A) no result since answer obtained by j4 without guessing

at which point the formal experiments petered out both times.

Those numbers are pretty impressive, and that's just the raw data analyzed very conservatively and not taking any account of the cluster of weirdnesses which crept in around, for example the "dreaming together" remark 10 years ago and the xhosa remark this year.

tally-ho!

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #157 on: 22 July 2015 11:18:29 PM »
Quote
ju4o:Those numbers are pretty impressive, and that's just the raw data analyzed very conservatively and not taking any account of the cluster of weirdnesses which crept in around, for example the "dreaming together" remark 10 years ago and the xhosa remark this year.

so i searched for the xhosha remark...
it goes:
 G  asked x what caused him mention xhosha:
Before I say anything further, could you please explain in detail what on earth made you choose Xhosa as the language in your example?
edit: i misquoted this quote. fixed. apologise, G. meaned to summerize, not quote, then changed my mind and forgot to change the HTML.
X answerd:
Quote
"i apologize, i have frantically googled and searched my browser history for the word that sparked the thought of xhosa. i cant find it or remember it. there were are bunch of words, spanish, scottish, german, one xhosa that i was googling...

of course! 
it's the storm kitten phenomena!

 explain:
end of 2006 i think... a mail-friend and i conducted private experiment in telepathy.

rather a training - we intended it as preliminary to a future second attempt to dream together, since the first attempt was problematic and cut in the middle.

we agreed to ajust sleep and waking cycles so we will be awake every 5 houers, while each of us send a massage 3 time and recieve 3 times in 24 houers, shifting terms (one sends, the other recieve, next time the other way around.) (this was not so fair to 13 years old meitari - who needed a functioning mom -  i was exhausted 24/7...)
the massage we were supposed to send was a name we were supposed to choose for the other. but he misunderstood me at first and send a nmae he chose for himself.
i didn't recieve anything from him at the first round.  i did recieve a bunch of unpleasant or offencive words  from other sources though. booming voices and such. "eternal vagina" or the like. one combination of ugly cillables i reckoned was sent by ghost dog (but no proof.) than my friend mailed me:  - at "nevigation awareness/SR" (were we both were posting at the time) you used a word you would never ever use lest you  did recieve my massage subconciousely. can you at least deduce it logically?" a swift glance was enough: i replied "unregistered user" saying: "why are you storming like that?"
mailed back: is it "storm"?
"yes!"

next round he asked me to send a 2 words name including "storm". i chose "storm kitten".
the next day, openning "nevigating awareness":  "Miao!"( a citten emoticon).

shortly after that the forum was deleted by ghost dog.

it's mentioned in the mails, but i don't have his permition to show it to anyone.
« Last Edit: 23 July 2015 10:11:31 PM by tally-ho! »
אָהוֹי כַּנְטַלָהּ
בַּרִ^י(כְּ) מָנְטָלַה
טַרֻי וָצַ'קָ[ת]
רַתּוּי מֻ(מ)רַטָּ[ת]
כָּהָר מַרֲטָה
טָרִיק בָּרְבַּרֻ רָטַּטֻהִי
אֲשַּׁתֻּהִי
הוֹי!

~נהפכ נהפכ ונהפכ~

âspen

  • Posts: 155
Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #158 on: 23 July 2015 08:10:13 PM »
Hello Z.  Your quotation from G in post #157 is inauthentic.

Hopefully you will be able to fix that easily.  But, could any of your other posts have inauthentic quotations?  The left hand margin says you have done 106 posts which is too many to check.

Can you suggest a solution?  It is not OK to have inauthentic quotations in a forum that is accessible to the public.

Mr X

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #159 on: 23 July 2015 08:50:29 PM »
hello j,

how many people participated in the sr experiments. and what was the dreaming together thing. (i had pretty much forgotten dreaming together was even an thing, was an novelty to see those words)

with the f4 rounds, the petering out / maxing out is also and interesting bit. after the xhosa thing its like my mind hit a wall of communication. it was much easier to not report or not try to figure everything out. weirdness continued but to try to make sense of it or coherently describe it became very difficult.

as mr g became less available, the strength or intenseness of the whole experience died down very much.

i also had the weird thought about how if telepathy or even just people being connected in an more than meat fashion were possible, it would not be an good idea to connect to myself. if we could swap minds for one minute, i would probably enjoy it, you however would not enjoy it.

i have reviewed the xhosa remark from my end, there is more to say about that, but not easy to describe.

more guessing rounds is not out of the question, but i think we should explore an bit further before doing that.

mr x.

tally-ho!

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #160 on: 23 July 2015 11:19:03 PM »
Hello Z.  Your quotation from G in post #157 is inauthentic.

Hopefully you will be able to fix that easily.
done.
 
Quote
But, could any of your other posts have inauthentic quotations?

well - dono. geuss not, i do try to be accurate, but here, you caught me mistaking.
Quote
The left hand margin says you have done 106 posts which is too many to check.

well, i believe, if i quoted anyone wrongly, that person would have inform me and i would fix it.

Quote
Can you suggest a solution?  It is not OK to have inauthentic quotations in a forum that is accessible to the public.
hey, aspetino! is it pettiness day over there?

what about... someone relates to my sensational info?

it's implications are:

1.  telepathy exists and IS quite common (according to my and my friend's "experiment" or training)

2.  X's original xhosha remark very likely was, like in the case i reported, subconsious telepathic perception of G's  thought.

that far, that's about it. i reported only round 1 of that "experiment", waited for your reactions, wanted to keep the discution focused on one thing at a time.

but no reactions (unless you count aspetito's misquote remark).
Quote
x: with the f4 rounds, the petering out / maxing
 out is also and interesting bit. after the xhosa thing its like my mind hit a wall of communication. it was much easier to not report or not try to figure everything out.

is this wall of commutication why you ignor me this time, xito?
repeate:
i believe your mentioning xhosha is like my mensioning "storming" in my above-mentioned "experiment": a manifestation of subconcious telepathic perception.
break that fog wall! relate!

P.S. planning and conducting that training, that person and me never had a doubt (each due to his own experience) in the possibility of telepathy as being not just provable, but also used as a working method.

as i implied in the other thread, i believe aiming low is what prevent you from hitting. and disbelief is what prevent you from aiming high enough.

i think i was stopped by the the same thing as a little child trying to throw stones, hop a rope and so on. never believed i can perform like the other kids and never mannaged to. 
 
אָהוֹי כַּנְטַלָהּ
בַּרִ^י(כְּ) מָנְטָלַה
טַרֻי וָצַ'קָ[ת]
רַתּוּי מֻ(מ)רַטָּ[ת]
כָּהָר מַרֲטָה
טָרִיק בָּרְבַּרֻ רָטַּטֻהִי
אֲשַּׁתֻּהִי
הוֹי!

~נהפכ נהפכ ונהפכ~

tally-ho!

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #161 on: 23 July 2015 11:26:15 PM »
hello j,

i also had the weird thought... it would not be an good idea to connect to myself. if we could swap minds for one minute, i would probably enjoy it, you however would not enjoy it.

???
why?
אָהוֹי כַּנְטַלָהּ
בַּרִ^י(כְּ) מָנְטָלַה
טַרֻי וָצַ'קָ[ת]
רַתּוּי מֻ(מ)רַטָּ[ת]
כָּהָר מַרֲטָה
טָרִיק בָּרְבַּרֻ רָטַּטֻהִי
אֲשַּׁתֻּהִי
הוֹי!

~נהפכ נהפכ ונהפכ~

ju4o

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #162 on: 23 July 2015 11:43:41 PM »
 
As the american lady exclaimed, upon being told that the oriental monk in whose monastery she was a guest was able to read people's minds,

"You mean he reads my mind?  Oh the poor, poor fellow, I am so terribly sorry for him."

tally-ho!

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #163 on: 24 July 2015 09:12:00 AM »

As the american lady exclaimed, upon being told that the oriental monk in whose monastery she was a guest was able to read people's minds,

"You mean he reads my mind?  Oh the poor, poor fellow, I am so terribly sorry for him."

are you implying X is actually an american lady?
or__?


P.S.  "imply" again...  who tries to hint-hint what? americam lady? oriental monky?
P.S.S. i got back to this unfasionable petty way of quoting since aspen's pettiness attack. tell me to stop if it's irritating.
« Last Edit: 24 July 2015 09:16:24 AM by tally-ho! »
אָהוֹי כַּנְטַלָהּ
בַּרִ^י(כְּ) מָנְטָלַה
טַרֻי וָצַ'קָ[ת]
רַתּוּי מֻ(מ)רַטָּ[ת]
כָּהָר מַרֲטָה
טָרִיק בָּרְבַּרֻ רָטַּטֻהִי
אֲשַּׁתֻּהִי
הוֹי!

~נהפכ נהפכ ונהפכ~

ju4o

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Re: general supernatural exploration
« Reply #164 on: 24 July 2015 09:56:35 AM »
SR coin experiment, summary:

Tungsten, October 4th 2004:
Quote
Coin Experiment

We're conducting a PSI experiment which anyone can participate in.

I've selected some coins the total of which is under $2.00.

Each day for the next five days I'll be "projecting" the total amount of these coins into the "ether".

You may put your answers here in this thread.

Thanks,
Tungstenblue

The coins are lying on the front center of a white table.

Directly behind the coins is a small Navajo ceramic plate, two small yellow candles flank the plate and a larger green one is behind the plate.

There are also four ceramic pieces I made myself that are on the table, plus a small family photograph.

Guesses (October 4th):

Tosk 73 cents
Greg $3.42
Ghost dog $1.27
Audrey $1

(October 5th)

Garen valoo 99 cents

(October 6th)

Abe 2 cents
Jeremy 37 cents

Tungsten, October 6th:
Quote
  :) We have a winner

Congradulations..............

Jeremy Donovan is the winner.................

It is exactly 37 cents.

Coin experiment is closed.........unless you want to guess the coin breakdown...............discuss!

Hey lets talk about doing another one......

Cards...........Anyone?

(The reason for Tungsten's mention of cards is that during the experiment, there had been a discussion of using cards instead of coins in order to give a richer set of possibilities.)

Greg added (October 10th) "My joke guess was purposefully out of bounds, because I'm totally devoid of any psychic abilities. However, it is entertaining to observe these kinds of experiments, because I do believe that some sort of non local information retrieval could exist, but I'll leave that to the others who have the esp talents... while I focus my energies on the mundane of trying to learn how to tile a staircase!"

Here is the analysis which I then made, October 22nd:
Quote
coin experiment analysis

Since I'm going to refer to it in upcoming posts (unless the combined forces of sanity succeed in shutting me up), I'd better post here an analysis of the coin experiment. Corrections welcomed.

Since we were not simply running it as a guessing game, but specifically as an experiment to explore the possibility of non-ordinary modes of perception (or of modes of synchronicity other than perception) it is proper to analyze it as such.

That is to say, we are interested not only in who won (as in a lottery), but in the more abstract questions of what - if anything - the results suggest about the unknown mechanics - if any - of what is going on.

For example, if the proportion of winners is significantly more than expected, or the proportion of losers significantly less than expected, that would be a suggestion that the experiment should be repeated in order to rule out the possibility of psi, collusion, or some other causative explanation or synchronistic mumbo-jumbo.

Since Tung stopped the experiment after the first winner, we can't assess the proportion of winners to losers directly (since we don't know how many more winners or losers there would have been if the experiment had run for the full five days), but we can still address the question by counting the wrong guesses preceding the right guess and seeing if that number is less than expected.

So the question is: how many wrong guesses would count as fewer than expected?

We had five wrong guesses followed by a right guess. (It's tempting to leave out Abe's guess of 2 cents, on the grounds that "some coins" means more than two, but let's resist the temptation.)

Let us derive the probability, assuming random guesses, of the game stopping within the first six guesses.
   
Code: [Select]
    Small print: Note: we want the probability of any of the first six
 guesses being correct, not just the probability of the first five being
 wrong and the sixth being correct.

    To see the importance of this, imagine that the experiment had run a thoroughly
 unremarkable course and finished at the one hundred and fifth guess.

    Well, the probability of all the first 104 guesses being wrong and the 105th guess
 being correct is actually pretty small, and does not bring out the unremarkableness
 of this outcome; what is really unremarkable about it is not that the game finished on
 the 105th guess (which is relatively unusual) but that it finished by the 105th guess
 (which is relatively usual).

Reluctantly allowing 2 as an admissible answer, we have 198 possible answers (2 to 199 inclusive), so the chance of the game proceeding for n or more guesses without a winner is (197 / 198) to the power of n.

Thus the probability of the game proceeding for 6 or more guesses without a winner is 0.970077

Thus the probability of the game not proceeding for 6 or more guesses without a winner is 0.029923

That is, a chance of 1 in 33 that the game stops within the first 6 guesses.

Which is a wonderful result because it means, roughly, that the probability of the coin experiment turning out as well as it did is approximately the same as the probability of winning were the membership of SR to troop down to a casino and stake collectively on a single roulette number (chance of 1 in 37).

** edit ** by the way, it's crucial to this analysis that Tung didn't advise in advance that he'd stop the game when a winner emerged. Without this vagueness on Tung's part, the game would have been much harder to analyze, since the multiplier wouldn't be (197/198) each time, but a descending series (196/197) ... depending on the points at which Tung logged on in the interim and had a look at the guesses so far.

Tung, on this occasion (unlike some) one is indebted to you for your laid-back and semi-detached nature.

If I had been more ruthless and left out Abe's guess of 2 cents (on the grounds that he was simply enjoying using a colloquial phrase in a language that is not his first language, and it would have been thoroughly inconceivable in the circumstances that Tungsten might have put only 2 cents on the table) then the odds (with 5 guesses instead of 6) would have worked out to 1 in 40 instead of 1 in 33.

However, it is good to be as conservative as possible when doing this kind of analysis as it helps keep the skeptics on board.  There weren't any complaints about the analysis which I actually made so I'll leave it as it is.